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harlowethrombey
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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The Jews, The Jews, The Jews are on fire. . .
I think today is the internationl 'kick a Jew' day. So if anyone lives near Hollywood you're going to have your work cut out for you. |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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gopher - lol. yes, on many many campuses it is the other way around. i was on the east coast when i went to school, populated by small liberal arts colleges, so yes, it was that way for me too. since i am not in school/academe anymore i find it more the other way now. you're right by the way - i don't think i was ever required to read anything blatently PRO-israeli except as examples of "fiction" and manufactured history. (the name escapes me but i know joan peters is was one).
it was very much in vogue/'the cool thing to be for' for a long time (which i always hated so much). then 9.11 and then it's ok to think of the palestinians as all terrorists again.
i will try to find some by khalidi - amazon or other.
thanks
adam |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Bacasper: doesn't everybody?
________
Megandadam: R. Khalidi's voice is worth your time. Read something of his.
| megandadam wrote: |
| by high and low i mean that in comparison it is much easier to find pro-israeli books and speakers than it is pro-palestinian writings. |
My only response to this is that it seems upside down. I am in the acadmeic community in the United States. What you say here is upside down, and has it the other way around, from where I stand. In fact, I cannot recall ever having seen much less be required to read a pro-Israeli book -- or met a pro-Israeli professor, for that matter. You will find none in any department of history or Near Eastern Studies department. You will have to go to the sub-department, Judaic Studies, to find them. |
Maybe it's because in universities they are making a proper attempt to look at the situation properly, whereas in the media it's more to do with propaganda.
The new historians are called so, because they are new. They are a new generation of Israeli historians working from previously undisclosed documents which contradicted much of the 'official' history. They are not called so because they are lefty arab-lovers (though there is of course llan Pappe). Benny Morris (the most famous of them) is hardly a lefty, and publically expresses his support for 'transfer.' He has written about unsavoury facts, that pro-zionists would rather the world didn't know of, but not because he was infatuated with the Palestinians. Simply because he was trying to approach it as a true scholar. In fact, he admits he believes many of the 'unsavoury events' he uncovered were acceptable and necessary in the wider context. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| It may be - as you suggest - that the Guardian's idea of a 'storm' is really just a few cranks on the internet. Maybe, maybe not. But you must surely be sailing through life in a state of blissful ignorance if you believe that journalists not towing the line on issues concerning 'hotspots' like Iran or Israel don't incur some personal cost. |
If you're talking about Walt and Mearschamer (sp?), their work was heavy assailed on academic grounds. Apparently many people read it and thought it wasn't very good. |
Um, Kuros, I was not aware that these guys were journalists. Secondly, this has been going on for years and years, not since these guys very recently published a paper. Some journalists admit they are very careful about how they write about Israel, because they want to keep themselves in a job. Retired journalists have spoken up about it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| megandadam wrote: |
| and if you don't think journalists get ire directed their way for writing critically about america, go back to 2001, september when if someone wrote anything bad about america they were said to be unamerican. |
Go back and read what Kuros wrote. He was talking about Lefty European journos, not American ones. Why on Earth would a lefty French journo care if he were called unamerican? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| someone needs to quote bobby fischer! |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...because in universities they are making a proper attempt to look at the situation properly, whereas in the media it's more to do with propaganda. |
No, no, no, and again, no. "A proper attempt to look at the situation properly?"
Taking a course of 180, just because one dislikes the 0 course -- in this case, the 0 course representing the nation-state's story -- does not necessarily lead one towards the truth, especially not in history. |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Still reading Robert Fisk.
Yesterday I read an article he wrote about the current President of Iran, Ahmadinejenad and Victor Klemperer - "a businessman, journalist, professor of literature and Holocaust survivor," - an interesting intersection - who wrote this sentence in his diary while hiding from the Nazis in Dresden: "There is no remedy against the truth of language." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...because in universities they are making a proper attempt to look at the situation properly, whereas in the media it's more to do with propaganda. |
No, no, no, and again, no. "A proper attempt to look at the situation properly?"
Taking a course of 180, just because one dislikes the 0 course -- in this case, the 0 course representing the nation-state's story -- does not necessarily lead one towards the truth, especially not in history. |
So you are saying American universities are substandard? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I am saying that people have a hard time getting their bearings straight when in the midst of, as Tacitus put it, which is my favorite person to quote on it, "raging animosities" on this or that historical discussion -- people in universities being no different from anyone else on this. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| "raging animosities" |
Great phrase. Thinking back to some of the wacky courses I took in uni (womyn studies etc, economic sociology, social justice in Canada).. These were exactly nothing more than "raging animosities" posing as graduation requirements. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Here are a couple of alternative translations from the standard Penguin edition most of us probably know...
| Quote: |
| ....But the successes and reverses of the old Roman people have been recorded by famous historians; and fine intellects were not wanting to describe the times of Augustus, till growing sycophancy scared them away. The histories of Tiberius, Caius, Claudius, and Nero, while they were in power, were falsified through terror, and after their death were written under the irritation of a recent hatred. Hence my purpose is to relate a few facts about Augustus -- more particularly his last acts, then the reign of Tiberius, and all which follows, without either bitterness or partiality, from any motives to which I am far removed. |
| Quote: |
| ...But, while the glories and disasters of the old Roman commonwealth have been chronicled by famous pens, and intellects of distinction were not lacking to tell the tale of the Augustan age, until the rising tide of sycophancy deterred them, the histories of Tiberius and Caligula, of Claudius and Nero, were falsified through cowardice while they flourished, and composed, when they fell, under the influence of still rankling hatreds. Hence my design, to treat a small part (the concluding one) of Augustus' reign, then the principate of Tiberius and its sequel, without anger and without partiality, from the motives of which I stand sufficiently removed. |
And yes, today's feminists are the worst of all. A hysterical, screeching lot, not to be crossed lightly in academic politics. Indeed, avoid them whenever possible.
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| And they are so annoying that they even turn normal women away from self-describing as feminists. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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It is worse than that. One "conservative" -- that is, not left-wing, not denouncing white males and their oppression day after day -- female colleague once explained to me how her "women's-studies" undergrads turned against her one semester.
It seems that they suspected that, since she was not giving them the usual, that she was "really" attempting to subvert their freedom as women, etc. Showed up in her course evals at the end of the semester. Scary evals for a not-yet-tenured faculty member.
Women's Studies dept. told her they could not use her anymore. Now she just sticks to straight Antro. Could not be happier. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Looks like I missed out on a lot of fun. Hard to have 'raging animosities' about Euclidean Geometry or Calculus. |
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