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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
From the Violence Policy Centre:
-About 10 percent of the adult population owns 77 percent of the total stock of firearms.
-There are about 65 million handguns in the United States. Handguns make up 34 percent of all types of firearms.
-Since 1962, more than one million Americans have died in firearm homicides, suicides, and unintentional shootings. Handguns were used in more than 650,000 of these fatal shootings.
-In homes with guns, a member of the household is almost three times as likely to be the victim of a homicide compared to gun-free homes.
-From 1990 to 1997 89,000 handgun homicides.
- In 1997, 54 percent of all gun deaths were suicides, and 42 percent were homicides. (That's like 96%!)
-For every time a gun in the home is used in a self-defense homicide, a gun will be used in�
*1.3 unintentional deaths
*4.6 criminal homicides
*37 suicides
In 1997 (the worst year on record) Among handgun homicides, only 193 of 8,503 (2.3 percent) were classified as justifiable homicides by civilians.
For every time in 1997 that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 43 people lost their lives in handgun homicides alone
And lastly, for every gun death, there are 3 non fatal shootings. |
....and lastly~lastly, most of these killings are done by men. So what's wrong with them? Probably not much more than men in other countries that don't have such easy access to guns.
Since the police or anyone could not possibly know whose head is about to pop and decide to go postal, get rid of guns. |
Get rid of guns? Let's look at:
1. Canada. Similar gun laws as USA, lot fewer incidents of nuts going crazy with guns.
2. Mexico. Tight gun laws but crazy amount of violence. Why? Smuggling.
3. Colombia. Had the Mexico experience a decade earlier.
Brazil passed tight gun laws back in 2004. Not sure if there is any definitive evidence if the laws have worked or not. Will be an interesting case study though.
Regardless, it really isn't that simplistic. You're also ignoring our culture here. Even if we were to ban guns (we can all dream), you can be sure that there would be a HUGE black market for weapons here. I sincerely doubt it would stop the violence. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: |
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BTW Ya-ta, the killings weren't in Pittsburg (CA), but Pittsburgh, PA.  |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| There are too many guns in this country, it's too easy for nut cases to get their hands on them, and it all needs to be reigned in. |
Then you wouldn't hear the end of it on Youtube or here about how Obama is taking away American People's rights, the New World Order, etc etc ... ad nauseum. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
-From 1990 to 1997 89,000 handgun homicides.
- In 1997, 54 percent of all gun deaths were suicides, and 42 percent were homicides |
So, let's break this down.
If half, or more, of ALL gun deaths were suicides, then guns had nothing to do with this. They were the means of choice, and another method would be used in their absence. Perhaps it would be more or less successful, but they would still try.
89,000 homicides over 8 years comes to 11,000 plus per year.
Out of those 11,000, it has been reported repeatedly that over half are a result of the WAR ON DRUGS and would not occur if drugs were re-legalized. If we want to get serious about reducing crime in America, we have to first end the war on drugs and relegalize all drugs.
Now, we're getting down to a need for more data. Just how many of the remaining 5,000 or so murders would happen anyway, if the perpetrator had to substitute an alternative weapon or method?
Perhaps just as many. Perhaps more, as some of the alternatives are more violent and more apt to spread to other victims. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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McSensei
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else see the the irony (sic: disgustingly distorted logic)?
This fellow going out and shooting a bunch of random people because he was scared Obama was going to take his guns away!
I'm a country-boy who has owned guns and likes hunting, but this makes me want to have stricter gun laws! I can't believe these nutjobs get so worked up that they go and take innocent lives. douchebag |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| If half, or more, of ALL gun deaths were suicides, then guns had nothing to do with this. They were the means of choice, and another method would be used in their absence. Perhaps it would be more or less successful, but they would still try. |
Not necessarily, because a large factor in the use of a handgun is immediacy. The fact that it's right there, and so likely to perceived as a foolproof, painless method, is going to push some people over the edge. By contrast, driving out to the bridge gives you a lot of time to reconsider (a lot of people are stopped because they pace back and forth before trying to jump) and swallowing rat poison is a daunting task. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| McSensei wrote: |
Does anyone else see the the irony (sic: disgustingly distorted logic)?
This fellow going out and shooting a bunch of random people because he was scared Obama was going to take his guns away!
I'm a country-boy who has owned guns and likes hunting, but this makes me want to have stricter gun laws! I can't believe these nutjobs get so worked up that they go and take innocent lives. douchebag |
Sure. He's got the right to bear arms and figured he could use 'em to shoot cops. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| If half, or more, of ALL gun deaths were suicides, then guns had nothing to do with this. They were the means of choice, and another method would be used in their absence. Perhaps it would be more or less successful, but they would still try. |
Not necessarily, because a large factor in the use of a handgun is immediacy. The fact that it's right there, and so likely to perceived as a foolproof, painless method, is going to push some people over the edge. By contrast, driving out to the bridge gives you a lot of time to reconsider (a lot of people are stopped because they pace back and forth before trying to jump) and swallowing rat poison is a daunting task. |
Rope and wire for hanging are readily available. Matches and gasoline are readily available for immolation, which is also painless due to shock. Razor blades and a warm bath with alcohol can be a calm, soothing, peaceful, relaxing way to go. And there are numerous prescription and OTC drugs that will do the trick - rat poison is disgusting.
There is no reason and no evidence for the suicide rate to be lower without guns. |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| If half, or more, of ALL gun deaths were suicides, then guns had nothing to do with this. They were the means of choice, and another method would be used in their absence. Perhaps it would be more or less successful, but they would still try. |
Not necessarily, because a large factor in the use of a handgun is immediacy. The fact that it's right there, and so likely to perceived as a foolproof, painless method, is going to push some people over the edge. By contrast, driving out to the bridge gives you a lot of time to reconsider (a lot of people are stopped because they pace back and forth before trying to jump) and swallowing rat poison is a daunting task. |
Rope and wire for hanging are readily available. Matches and gasoline are readily available for immolation, which is also painless due to shock. Razor blades and a warm bath with alcohol can be a calm, soothing, peaceful, relaxing way to go. And there are numerous prescription and OTC drugs that will do the trick - rat poison is disgusting.
There is no reason and no evidence for the suicide rate to be lower without guns. |
I'm not sure that covering yourself with gasoline and lighting a match would be so painless. I wouldn't want to find out. There is plenty of evidence to show that keeping a gun in your home is correlated with a higher risk of suicide. Almost five times higher in this study-
"After we controlled for these characteristics through conditional logistic regression, the presence of one or more guns in the home was found to be associated with an increased risk of suicide (adjusted odds ratio, 4.8; 95 percent confidence interval, 2.7 to 8.5). CONCLUSIONS. Ready availability of firearms is associated with an increased risk of suicide in the home. Owners of firearms should weigh their reasons for keeping a gun in the home against the possibility that it might someday be used in a suicide."
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/327/7/467 |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Kepler wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Hater Depot wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| If half, or more, of ALL gun deaths were suicides, then guns had nothing to do with this. They were the means of choice, and another method would be used in their absence. Perhaps it would be more or less successful, but they would still try. |
Not necessarily, because a large factor in the use of a handgun is immediacy. The fact that it's right there, and so likely to perceived as a foolproof, painless method, is going to push some people over the edge. By contrast, driving out to the bridge gives you a lot of time to reconsider (a lot of people are stopped because they pace back and forth before trying to jump) and swallowing rat poison is a daunting task. |
Rope and wire for hanging are readily available. Matches and gasoline are readily available for immolation, which is also painless due to shock. Razor blades and a warm bath with alcohol can be a calm, soothing, peaceful, relaxing way to go. And there are numerous prescription and OTC drugs that will do the trick - rat poison is disgusting.
There is no reason and no evidence for the suicide rate to be lower without guns. |
I'm not sure that covering yourself with gasoline and lighting a match would be so painless. I wouldn't want to find out. There is plenty of evidence to show that keeping a gun in your home is correlated with a higher risk of suicide. Almost five times higher in this study-
"After we controlled for these characteristics through conditional logistic regression, the presence of one or more guns in the home was found to be associated with an increased risk of suicide (adjusted odds ratio, 4.8; 95 percent confidence interval, 2.7 to 8.5). CONCLUSIONS. Ready availability of firearms is associated with an increased risk of suicide in the home. Owners of firearms should weigh their reasons for keeping a gun in the home against the possibility that it might someday be used in a suicide."
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/327/7/467 |
Unfortunately, I DO know from a non-suicide experience (someone else's good idea of fun) that when you are doused with gasoline and burning there is absolutely no pain until a few minutes after the fire is put out. No pain while you burn, so if you burn to death you will die painlessly. Massive 3rd degree burns are quite painful for quite a while after the burning stops. Nothing like it.
As to the suicide studies, one of the major problems is that many suicides that do NOT involve firearms are classified as accidents to avoid stigma and to help the families collect insurance. There are hundreds of single car/single victim suicides reported as auto "accidents", hundreds of accidental drug ODs that are really drug suicides, accidental falls that are really suicide, parachutes that fail to open suicides, hypothermia (another peaceful, nearly painless way to go, get tired, maybe drunk, and go to sleep in the cold) ... But, the gun suicides are too obvious, hard to hide and classify wrongly.
Finally, people who think they might one day like to commit suicide are likely to plan ahead and stock some instrument they deem suitable. So, of course people who own guns would be more likely to commit suicide since people who do so generally have long term suicide thought processes and plan ahead accordingly. There are very few sudden suicides. Nearly all have thought about it for years and most have made multiple attempts prior to the successful act.
There is still NO evidence whatsoever that guns increase the number of suicide attempts. |
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