Korean Job Discussion Forums

[samcheokguy]

I diasgree, it seems clear, at least in the US, those with solid trade training are making FAR more money than those with a BA in French Lit. or Philosophy.

[Big_Bird]

[BS.Dos.]

Regarding the number taking degrees in the UK. You have to also factor in the demise of the UK manufacturing base over the same period. School leavers don't have the same options that previous generations had. There just aren't as many jobs which require vocational experience as there were 30+ years ago. When you consider the economy is now service led, especially in the financial services sector, it's not surprising that there's such a drive to get young people into higher education.

I think the problem isn't helped by the fact that the traditional 'trades' are so (largely) unregulated in the UK. If the government tightened up the trade sector as is the case in Germany, then people might start viewing jobs like plumbing and carpentry etc as a serious career choices. Ultimately, I think the universities themselves are to blame. Higher education is just about getting bums on seats now.

[canuckistan]

I think the problem starts in middle/high school. Teachers have turned into pussies.

A kid can NOT hand in an assignment and there are no consequences--except a ditched grade in the quarterly report card, which too many parents blow off with a "tsk tsk" and very little follow up afterwards. Too late to do anything about it.

I recently had a meeting with one of our son's teachers about such a missing assignment. I was told about 10 kids didn't hand it in either.
"Consequences for that?" I asked the teacher. "How do you handle it?"
Zero, zip, nada.
"So what's stopping them from continuing not to hand in your assignments if there are no consequences?"

I may have embarrassed her, but I was gobsmacked her students are NOT held immediately accountable.

So if teachers don't take it seriously, why should students? Ditto for those parents who don't pay attention to what their kids are doing/not doing in school.

Reading/language development teacher:"We're reading passages and learning to figure out vocabulary from context."
"Do you ever use dictionaries in your class?" I asked out of curiosity.
No answer to that, just a bit of a glare to Mrs Canuckistan for having the temerity to ask about such an obvious tool.

At home I give our kids a lot of supplementals because I'll be goddamned if they grow up not being able to really really read, and really really write. TV is largely banned as are vid games and all other garbage that suck up their brain space and time. They're going to hit college knowing how to write a decent essay, which sadly constitutes a minority these days. I don't believe in homeschooling because kids need to learn to deal with other kids/people--for better or for worse, and be taught by people with more than just mom & dad's myopic perspective on the world. But it's clear the public school system in our burg has dropped standards to the point where not doing assigned school work isn't considered a "big deal" by teachers in middle school any more. And it seems teachers just couldn't be bothered to deal with it, let alone take the time to call the p's or send home a note either.

So WHEN and HOW do kids learn good work habits & accountability in school these days???!!!!

I went through a Scottish-flavoured Protestant school system and there simply was no *&%!$!! around--starting and ending with the teachers first--it usually never got to the p's and you'd be in a world of shyte if it did.
Frankly if I could send our kids to an all-boys school with uniforms and ball-cracking teachers that believe excuses are for losers, I would.

[Gopher]

Canuckistan: teachers have become pussies because parents have badgered them and, in especially in California, so has the state.

Best for them to continue assuming a low-profile posture and continue their strategy to avoid being sued because Harvard rejected Sally or Joey's application...

[Tiger Beer]

[ManintheMiddle]

Big Bird chirped:

[bizzle]

pheeeeewwwww...... i got just in time before it went to sh!t

[Big_Bird]

[Forward Observer]

[GwangjuParents]

The problem (if you can call it a problem) is that the goal of state so-called 'education' is to produce workers who can show up for work on time and follow instructions, and who can hopefully get along somewhat with other people. People who accept the current system -its logic, language, values. All more or less.

In many ways, I personally think this is a good thing, and socially necessary.

But you'll note that nowhere in all of this did I mention 'critical thinking'.

In universities, however, you're supposed to do the opposite of what was encouraged in the state schools - you're supposed to question authority, and be able to form clear arguments (so longer as you're politically correct about it )

Now, I appreciate that's a very big generalization.

So there is a big chasm between the goals pre university education and actual university education.

That's the cause of the difficulty right there...

[bacasper]

[rollo]

Very good point by Canuckistan about how teachers refuse to hold the Children responsible. Much of elementary education is now about building self-esteem not imparting information. So if a teacher holds a child to a standard and give a bad mark this is viewed as damaging the self esteem not challenging the child to do better.

Less exposure to the television! My wife and I decided that t.v. was not something that we wanted for our daughter and because of that decision we see the results. she is much better read than most of her peers, she seeks out challenging books. Other parents i know that have limited t.v. viewing also see similar results.

On Wikipedia: the man Doctor Julius Younger who did the research that led to the polio vaccine has no wiki page. Richard Best who was the real hero of the batle of Midway has no wiki page. It is mostly a pop culture trivia site as far as i can tell. I still use it but i recognize its limitations. It is not a replacement for reall research.

[Ya-ta Boy]

[daskalos]

OP, I agree completely. You are not, however, required to agree in any way with what follows.

When I am dictator of the world, anyone who wants to have what s/he can call a post-secondary education must first get a Liberal Arts Degree. After that, should you wish to specialize in law or one of the sciences, feel free.

If you would like to forego a Liberal Arts education, you may go straight on to vocational training, which is what we now call engineering degrees, business degrees, etc.

In my fantasy dictatorship, you could only call yourself educated if you could write a reasonably grammatical sentence, paragraph, paper. You could only call yourself educated if you spoke another language. You could only claim to be educated if you could place Confucius, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Genghis Khan and Henry the Navigator in a chronological list - I can't tell you how many college-educated people I know who can't do this, even when I list the personages in chronological order, as I have done here.

And somehow, my insistence that an educated person be able to do any or all these things is construed as "oppressive." Whatever.

I weep for humanity, and I wonder what the next dominant species on this planet will be, because we are clearly toast.

(Also interesting to note that very often, when some generation or another bemoans the state of ensuing generations, those statements have taken place during a civilization in decline. Philosophers in the Golden Age of Greece sang this refrain, and they were right.)

Das