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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Why get caught up in someone else's transparently opportunistic pretext for attacking B. Obama? |
Well, I maybe tend to pay more attention to the minutiae of political rhetoric than you do.
Yes, I'm aware that these anti-Obama statements are comparably insignificant in the grand scheme of things. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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Diplomatic protocol with a close, allied govt, no more no less. People should not be so rigid and force this or that interpretation onto that.
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That's basically the thing. If you're uncofortable with Obama following the protocols of the Saudi court, then the much larger issue you should be examining is why the USA is allied with such a regime in the first place. |
No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone.
Doesn't matter if the regime is good, bad, or vanilla, or chocolate. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone... |
I never voted for that.
The president stands as our head of state, head of govt, commander-in-chief, and chief law-enforcement officer. He is no emperor or king; nor is he any better than any other nation-state's statesmen. I expect him to carry himself respectably, in a dignified manner, and to respect others' cultures and diplomatic protocols while abroad -- especially our allies and other friendly govts. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Kuros reminded:
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| No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone. |
Bingo, bruddah.
Gopher responded:
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| I never voted for that. |
No, you didn't and neither did any other citizen but that doesn't negate the fact that it's been longstanding American protocol, same as not lowering the flag during the opening and closing ceremonies at the Olympics. Now some might see that as arrogance--as I think Obama did--but consider this: even the Saudi King tried to bend down so as to lessen the effect of Obama's bow. He was just as uncomfortable with what went down. Obama is bending over backwards--er--forwards to show the world he isn't a cowboy. But it rubs me and many Americans across party lines the wrong way.
Ya-Ta Boy wisecracked:
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| I miss the hand-holding and kissing of the previous C-in-C. |
I also didn't like it when Bush kissed the king. But Obama's not even consistent: he barely bobbed his head for the Queen of England (not that I think he should have shown her any reverence.)
OTOH replied:
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| But it's a bit much, all this bemoaning of Obama's bow, coming from the right wing. |
Many of those objecting are not right-wingers and I recall more than a few liberals bellyaching when Rumsfeld referred to Western Europe as "Old Europe." Besides, it's the Obama Administration that was all caught up in symbolism on his first outing to Europe. So of course we noticed.
Magic Mushroom man explained:
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| He's obviously got some issues with black guys |
Half right, which makes your observation half-ass, as usual. I have problems (issues are for euphemism-loving liberals) with Black guys who prop themselves up on the campaign trail as something different than the same old tired politics of the past decade and then resort to the very same tactics once they get elected. I have a problem with Black leaders who think they have a monopoly on virtue too.
ubermensch legitimately asked:
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| but i am confused about much of the OP. why do you bring up his inaugural, and the alleged handshake discrimination? You are trying to make an argument that Obama's sympathies do not lie with we the whites, but rather with his "bruddahs"? the poor silent majority hence the bowing and the attacks on o'reilly and dobbs against their heroic struggle to protect america from the scourge of illegals. |
Actually, I planned to bring that up a long time ago, indeed shortly after it happened. I watched his entrance to the House chamber closely because body language can say a lot about a person only with politicians, who are masters of deception, it can be a dicey thing. Anyhow, it's not a statement about race, per se, rather Obama's obvious need to come across as cool and hanging with his brothers. (This need to be seen as "cool" is a social affliction of the Black Left. It doesn't affect everyone of that stripe--Martin Luther King, Jr. was not prone to such displays, for instance, which is one reason I admire him so.) When Obama passes only the second Supreme Court justice in history he shows his utter contempt--sort of an Uncle Tom disdain--by ignoring the guy altogether. Not exactly fence-mending and certainly not the exalted behavior we should expect from a leader who has the audacity to liken himself to Lincoln.
We have every right to protect ourselves from illegal immigration, as any nation claims. The Mexican government itself maintains strict enforcement of it national borders with its Central American neighbors, but you don't hear any Leftist outcry over that, do you? And they still have the temerity to criticize us for doing the same. Of course, I blame their enablers in the U.S. as well--this flaunting of our borders is unprecedented in history. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:14 am Post subject: |
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No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone.
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http://tinyurl.com/cqxwyz
Maybe Bush was breaking protocol too. Doesn't really bother me. My only point would be that I don't recall any outrage from Republic circles when that photo was released. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone.
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http://tinyurl.com/cqxwyz
Maybe Bush was breaking protocol too. Doesn't really bother me. My only point would be that I don't recall any outrage from Republic circles when that photo was released. |
Kuros isn't a Repblican. The "Republicans didn't do it when" line is not really useful OTOH. I reckon most of the regular posters here were very critical of Bush and are starting to turn on Obama too. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone.
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http://tinyurl.com/cqxwyz
Maybe Bush was breaking protocol too. Doesn't really bother me. My only point would be that I don't recall any outrage from Republic circles when that photo was released. |
As I said in the thread I created, I think its a bit of noise. I.e., I don't think its incredibly significant in the larger scheme of things.
However, I remember many arguments during the primaries where Obama & supporters argued the importance of symbolism. Insofar as it is an important act of symbolism, its a mistake on Obama's part. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Bowing to Saudi and using the "tolerance" card regarding immigration |
But it's a bit much, all this bemoaning of Obama's bow, coming from the right wing. Seeing as how the previous president was VERY good friends with a prince from the same royal family. (And my source on this is Bob Woodward, not Michael Moore.) |
I've been quite consistent on this topic. I'm tired of us pretending that islam is something other than the theological equivalent of The Borg. Obama bowing to Saudi and then talking about tolerance and such is absurd. |
To be fair, Christianity is much closer in form to Borg behavior than Islam is. I've never had a Muslim show up on my door step trying to assimilate me.
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
No, no, no. That misses the point. American Presidents aren't supposed to bow. Not to anyone.
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http://tinyurl.com/cqxwyz
Maybe Bush was breaking protocol too. Doesn't really bother me. My only point would be that I don't recall any outrage from Republic circles when that photo was released. |
Most Republicans complaining of Obama's bow are obviously just taking political hits on him, yes. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that it still isn't acceptable behavior from our President to bow as he did to the Saudi King -- not because of the fact that Saudi Arabia has some questionable practices, but because it's embarassing to our nation. I'm not saying our President is necessarily superior to statesmen of other nations, but he assuredly should not be indulging in gestures of submission to them, regardless of what their local cultures deem appropriate.
That said, as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, it will probably blow over quickly, and given his press people making claims that it wasn't a bow at all, he recognizes it was a mistake and is unlikely to repeat it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Most Republicans complaining of Obama's bow are obviously just taking political hits on him, yes. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that it still isn't acceptable behavior from our President to bow as he did to the Saudi King -- not because of the fact that Saudi Arabia has some questionable practices, but because it's embarassing to our nation. I'm not saying our President is necessarily superior to statesmen of other nations, but he assuredly should not be indulging in gestures of submission to them, regardless of what their local cultures deem appropriate.
That said, as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, it will probably blow over quickly, and given his press people making claims that it wasn't a bow at all, he recognizes it was a mistake and is unlikely to repeat it. |
I agree entirely. Well said. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Most Republicans complaining of Obama's bow are obviously just taking political hits on him, yes. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that it still isn't acceptable behavior from our President to bow as he did to the Saudi King -- not because of the fact that Saudi Arabia has some questionable practices, but because it's embarassing to our nation. I'm not saying our President is necessarily superior to statesmen of other nations, but he assuredly should not be indulging in gestures of submission to them, regardless of what their local cultures deem appropriate.
That said, as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, it will probably blow over quickly, and given his press people making claims that it wasn't a bow at all, he recognizes it was a mistake and is unlikely to repeat it. |
I agree entirely. Well said. |
I also agree.
I doubt it will be repeated. However, I'm not sure it was a 'mistake'. It may have been calculated to appeal to the Moslem street. Once is enough--the picture will not disappear. The point has been made. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: |
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MiM
Good post, as usual.
In regards to Obama and diplomatic "protocal", I think it was way out of line.
Didn't FDR one say something about how to go about these things?
"Speak sofly.....but carry a big stick".
somthing like that.
dmbfan |
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