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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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 Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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So, what does the Holocaust have to do with Israel anyway?
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The people who went through it and survived, came out harder than nails.
They took an idea and forced it into reality and then survived the repercussions of thier actions. You might not like them, but you really do have to give them respect for thier strenght of purpose.
A people who had absolutely nothing to lose can do amazing things.
Read some historical books and personal accounts, it might make you cringe but it does explain the creation of the state of Israel. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the most fundamental concept underlying all human civilization -- indeed, the very definition of what it means to be a civilized human being -- is the notion that might does not make right. Tenacious? Yes, certainly. The nazis were tenacious, also. Are we to shrug our shoulders and 'respect their strength of purpose' as well? Or does that rule only apply to the Israelis, exclusively, while all others must respect the accepted rules of human decency?
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Quote: |
So, what does the Holocaust have to do with Israel anyway?
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The people who went through it and survived, came out harder than nails.
They took an idea and forced it into reality and then survived the repercussions of thier actions. You might not like them, but you really do have to give them respect for thier strenght of purpose.
A people who had absolutely nothing to lose can do amazing things.
Read some historical books and personal accounts, it might make you cringe but it does explain the creation of the state of Israel. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Perhaps the most fundamental concept underlying all human civilization -- indeed, the very definition of what it means to be a civilized human being -- is the notion that might does not make right. |
Silly straw-man. Silly silly.
Every state on the planet gets authority from a monopoly on violence. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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You are more than welcome to hold that opinion, in which case you have no business criticizing the Nazis or Hamas 
Checkmate.
| mises wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
| Perhaps the most fundamental concept underlying all human civilization -- indeed, the very definition of what it means to be a civilized human being -- is the notion that might does not make right. |
Silly straw-man. Silly silly.
Every state on the planet gets authority from a monopoly on violence. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Checkmate? You really say things like that? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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One would then have to deduct this half-million from the
5.1 million figure of those killed. |
Which brings up the question: Just how stupid are you?
The alternatives are either that you are a scumbag who scoffs at the deaths of multiple millions or you are a troll who scoffs at the deaths of multiple millions. The result is the same: multiple millions died and you are a scumbag. |
The 5.1 million figure is from Raul Hillberg. There are figures that go into the 6 million range. At any rate, the total number of people who died in the Nazi Holocaust was 11 million people all the way up to 15 million.
Millions of non-Jews died in the Nazi Holocaust sometimes called the Holocaust. Some like Finkelstein and others state that the Holocaust, a terrible tragedy, is often used in discourse to shield the state from criticism for human rights abuses. There are also people who say many Jewish victims didn't get many farthings for all the money collected.
The Jewish component connected to the terms Shoah and the Jewish Holocaust numbered anywhere from 5.1 million to 6+ million according to most historians. We can't know for sure the exact number.
Roughly, 500,000 gypsies perished, and perhaps 7 million Ukrainians.
I am not sure how many million Polish Catholics perished, but some Poles claim 2 million perished.
The Jewish Holocaust helped Israel gain the manpower it needed to build its state and garner sympathy and also in the 1980s Begin said that no one could criticize Israel considering what happened in the Holocaust, but there was some contempt in Israel for many of the Jews in Europe, that many people don't know about.
In the U.S. the Holocaust was not discussed much as the US was not interested in it, and it was not Israel's main ally, and the US was trying to rehabilitate West Germany and it had employed Germans. In the late 60s the Holocaust was talked about a lot.
At any rate, the term holocaust is not a new term. Winston Churchill when referring to the mass genocide against the Armenians called it
an "administrative holocaust", and some Irish called in the 19th century the starving of 2 million Irishmen by the British a holocaust. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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My next thread will show how 19th century zionism was based firmly on the concept of Jewish racial superiority; how Herzl, Monterfiore, and many other early zionists used race to inspire support for the zionist project, and how, after WWII, that racism was conveniently deleted from the official record and The Holocaust was cut-and-pasted in its place. The racist roots of zionism have, for the mainstream, been edited out of popular discourse, although they are easily traceable.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
One would then have to deduct this half-million from the
5.1 million figure of those killed. |
Which brings up the question: Just how stupid are you?
The alternatives are either that you are a scumbag who scoffs at the deaths of multiple millions or you are a troll who scoffs at the deaths of multiple millions. The result is the same: multiple millions died and you are a scumbag. |
The 5.1 million figure is from Raul Hillberg. There are figures that go into the 6 million range. At any rate, the total number of people who died in the Nazi Holocaust was 11 million people all the way up to 15 million.
Millions of non-Jews died in the Nazi Holocaust sometimes called the Holocaust. Some like Finkelstein and others state that the Holocaust, a terrible tragedy, is often used in discourse to shield the state from criticism for human rights abuses. There are also people who say many Jewish victims didn't get many farthings for all the money collected.
The Jewish component connected to the terms Shoah and the Jewish Holocaust numbered anywhere from 5.1 million to 6+ million according to most historians. We can't know for sure the exact number.
Roughly, 500,000 gypsies perished, and perhaps 7 million Ukrainians.
I am not sure how many million Polish Catholics perished, but some Poles claim 2 million perished.
The Jewish Holocaust helped Israel gain the manpower it needed to build its state and garner sympathy and also in the 1980s Begin said that no one could criticize Israel considering what happened in the Holocaust, but there was some contempt in Israel for many of the Jews in Europe, that many people don't know about.
In the U.S. the Holocaust was not discussed much as the US was not interested in it, and it was not Israel's main ally, and the US was trying to rehabilitate West Germany and it had employed Germans. In the late 60s the Holocaust was talked about a lot.
At any rate, the term holocaust is not a new term. Winston Churchill when referring to the mass genocide against the Armenians called it
an "administrative holocaust", and some Irish called in the 19th century the starving of 2 million Irishmen by the British a holocaust. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Trevor"]My next thread will show how 19th century zionism was based firmly on the concept of Jewish racial superiority; how Herzl, Monterfiore, and many other early zionists used race to inspire support for the zionist project, and how, after WWII, that racism was conveniently deleted from the official record and The Holocaust was cut-and-pasted in its place. The racist roots of zionism have, for the mainstream, been edited out of popular discourse, although they are easily traceable.
Trevor, when you highlight a certain part of what I wrote for propagandistic reasons, I can't say I approve. What I wrote is part of all of what I wrote. Yes, Zionism is focused on Jewish nationalism. The Holocaust, for whatever it's worth, was still a massive crimes against the Jewish people and its gentile victims during World War II. I would say that the Israeli Government does have racist practices vis-a-vis its Arab-Israeli population and the people under its occupation. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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One of the most heated arguments of the postmodern era is the nature of authorship and the rights of an author to determine what manner his writing is used for. (See Derrida/Lyotard and those fat-cats on the disappearance of the author). I'll try to be cognizant of your preferences. Meanwhile, please be aware that the zionists on this board (as well as elsewhere) have a peculiar predilection towards slander which seems to be indigenous to any subject matter having to do with Israel and the holocuast.
Also, while I did highlight a portion of your post, I did not take it out of it's original context, nor change any of the wording. It was clear that the emphasis was mine, not yours. Fair usage in my book of rules.
[quote="Adventurer"]
| Trevor wrote: |
My next thread will show how 19th century zionism was based firmly on the concept of Jewish racial superiority; how Herzl, Monterfiore, and many other early zionists used race to inspire support for the zionist project, and how, after WWII, that racism was conveniently deleted from the official record and The Holocaust was cut-and-pasted in its place. The racist roots of zionism have, for the mainstream, been edited out of popular discourse, although they are easily traceable.
Trevor, when you highlight a certain part of what I wrote for propagandistic reasons, I can't say I approve. What I wrote is part of all of what I wrote. Yes, Zionism is focused on Jewish nationalism. The Holocaust, for whatever it's worth, was still a massive crimes against the Jewish people and its gentile victims during World War II. I would say that the Israeli Government does have racist practices vis-a-vis its Arab-Israeli population and the people under its occupation. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| You're still a trolling scumbag. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Meanwhile, please be aware that the zionists on this board (as well as elsewhere) have a peculiar predilection towards slander which seems to be indigenous to any subject matter having to do with Israel and the holocuast.
. |
[/quote]
Slander is the spoken word.
LIBEL is written and would be what appears on this board.
Learn the difference and then post. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Meanwhile, please be aware that the zionists on this board (as well as elsewhere) have a peculiar predilection towards slander which seems to be indigenous to any subject matter having to do with Israel and the holocuast. |
Zionists on this board? Uh.. Who? |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Slander is the term used in the posting guidelines of this forum (erroneous or not). Read the terms of usage and then post.
="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Trevor wrote: |
Meanwhile, please be aware that the zionists on this board (as well as elsewhere) have a peculiar predilection towards slander which seems to be indigenous to any subject matter having to do with Israel and the holocuast.
. |
[/quote]
Slander is the spoken word.
LIBEL is written and would be what appears on this board.
Learn the difference and then post.[/quote] |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Slander is the term used in the posting guidelines of this forum (erroneous or not). Read the terms of usage and then post.
The terms of usage do not govern the meaning of language.
Someone using incorrect usage does not grant you authority to do the same. However by all means keep using the incorrect terms...it just makes people take you less and less seriously.
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Your focus on grammatical issues illustrates two glaring facts:
1. My ability to confront and expose the sleazy underbelly of zionism and the holocaust in a public forum makes you very angry.
2. You do not have the intellectual ability to refute anything I say in any meaningful manner. As a result, I suppose punctuation and typos will be your next target. Let us know when you finish the spell check and get back to us on that. No rush, take your time.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
Slander is the term used in the posting guidelines of this forum (erroneous or not). Read the terms of usage and then post.
The terms of usage do not govern the meaning of language.
Someone using incorrect usage does not grant you authority to do the same. However by all means keep using the incorrect terms...it just makes people take you less and less seriously.
] |
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