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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Fox said:
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I think his mention of America's own past issues strengthens his call for Turkey to progress on this account, not weakens it.
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Yet he didn't have the balls to use the word 'genocide'? This is nuts. If Obama wants to encourage Turkish progress he doesn't do it by saying he wants them to enter the EU (as if) or focus on how shitty American slavery was. Let us now try treating muslims like adults. See how it works out.
OTOH said:
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I wonder how much it would do for the cause of gay-marriage in the US if the Prime Minister of Canada were to go there and tell American audiences that they need to be more "Canadian" in their approach to marriage equality.
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Weak. The opposite of what Obama did isn't saying "be like us". He didn't need to run through American historical sins to get a bloody pipeline.
And he has no intention of leaving Iraq, so he doesn't need the Turks help to do something that he doesn't intend to do.
No, he just ran down the sins for no real reason and to no benefit. It is as if he is trying to avoid re-election. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Well, most Americans don't think the Civil War was about slavery. |
My understanding of the basic contours goes like this:
Lincoln fought the Civil War in order to keep the union together.
BUT...
The reason the union was threatened in the first place was because the southern states declared independence in response to what they viewed as Lincoln's less-than-sympathetic policies towards slavery.
AND...
Had Lincoln just let the southern states go, there is no guarantee on record that the abolition of slavery would have taken place when it did. |
This is essentially right and is what is taught in northern public school textbooks in high school. One addition: The political philosophy of States Rights was the platform on which the South claimed the national government could not regulate slavery. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Mises wrote:
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Weak. The opposite of what Obama did isn't saying "be like us". He didn't need to run through American historical sins to get a bloody pipeline.
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Well, maybe I misunderstood the writer's point, but it seemed to me that he was calling for Obama to explicitly endorse western values in his speech to the Turks.
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For another, Turkey does need a reminder of Western idealism, and assurances that it did not err a century ago when it broke with Orientalism and the Islamic state to embrace Western values.
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Now, look. I love Kemalism as much as the next liberal-minded westerner. But the fact of the matter is, the current ruling party in Turkey has positioned itself somewhat in opposition to the supposed intractablity and ossification of the Kemalist ideology. And this is a goverment that has been publically supported by the previous American administration. Obama would be break-dancing in a minefield if he just went in there and started making what sounded like rah-rah speeches for westernization. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Fox said:
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I think his mention of America's own past issues strengthens his call for Turkey to progress on this account, not weakens it.
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Yet he didn't have the balls to use the word 'genocide'?
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It would have been pointless antagonization. There's a difference between cowardice and tact.
| mises wrote: |
| Let us now try treating muslims like adults. See how it works out. |
His speech was very adult in tone. Only children need things rubbed harshly in their face to get the point. When dealing with someone in an adult fashion, manners and respect are generally involved. |
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