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snowgirl79
Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Advice needed |
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OK, so I've been doing a bit of research regarding my situation but no two are ever the same, so need a bit of advice if anyone has got any to give me.
I've been working at my hagwon since Nov 3rd 2008, I recently got a great new job at an international school here in Seoul which starts August 3rd. So, I handed in my 3 months notice (as stated in my contract) to my boss, their reaction has been none too pleasant to say the least. I had an hour long meeting yesterday which got us nowhere. My feelings now are that they are trying to bribe/bully me over the letter of release, for example saying I have to pay them money or find a new teacher blah, blah, blah you know the kind of thing. My new employer has said I need this letter of release to transfer to my new visa which will be an E7.
I plan to go back to the UK for two weeks between jobs. So, if my boss still refuses to provide an LOR can I cancel my existing E2 visa and come in on a new visa? I'm just aware there's a small time frame between me finishing my current job (July 17th) and starting the new job on August 3rd. I've already applied for a new CRB so will have all my documents needed for the new visa. I just know that I can't work at my new job without a visa.
Advice greatly appreciated! |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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yeah, I feel for ya'
have never renewed a contract and every time it gets closer to the end, things get harder and more stressful.
when I was working at a PS a few years ago I wanted to quit and was given SO much grief for it - I wound up sticking it out, but jees I was stressed to the max.
you need to be prepared for anything - even getting fired. save your cash, organize your living space, and watch your back there.
you might need to discuss this with your new employer - if it's an e7 won't you have to get a new visa anyway? sounds like you're on an e2 now? I don't think an e7 needs a criminal check - that's not for teaching much less being around children -
are you sure about the visa situations? if you've given proper notice - and make sure you have written proof to back yourself up in case you have to go to labor later or even immigration - just be strong and try and let the temper tantrums roll off your back.
you'll be out of there soon enough.
good luck! |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| if my boss still refuses to provide an LOR can I cancel my existing E2 visa and come in on a new visa? |
Under the old rules the answer would of been generally a flat no.
Under the current rules my impression is that it is more a grey area than before. But I would still lean toward saying you will need the LOR.
You could try helping your current school out to find a replacement, that would make it easier for them to give the LOR.
No it is not contractually required - but it would be a courtesy on your part.
Overall I think you basically got to dance with the person that brought you ... and not bail out unless there are extreme circumstances. |
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Kikomom
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: them thar hills--Penna, USA--Zippy is my kid, the teacher in ROK. You can call me Kiko
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
you need to be prepared for anything - even getting fired. save your cash, organize your living space, and watch your back there.
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Be ready for a midnight run, if necessary.
Snowgirl, did a recruiter help you find the new job? If so, see if they can help you untangle this.
Wario did this six months in. But he had issues for why he was leaving--not being paid overtime, inflated work schedule, etc. He lost his severance pay and flight home, but is in a much better situation now, so he's ok with that. He actually used the same recruiter to find both jobs--big help there. Though he did get a LOR while the new school sent him to Japan on a visa run.
I would say to tell your hagwon that you will be happy to recommend them to a replacement (with the veiled threat that you can only do that if you're really happy--under no circumstance should you ever imply libel, just mutual cooperation). Imply they are an honorable institution that abides by it's contract agreements, bla bla bla--after they give you the LOR, of course.
FWIW, this is why all new FT's should contact current FT's at a school they are looking at for employment. It helps keep them honest. And use a recruiter who will stick with you on the K-side. |
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Ut videam
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Pocheon-si, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
| if it's an e7 won't you have to get a new visa anyway? sounds like you're on an e2 now? |
Changes in status of employment (E-2 to E-1 or E-7) can often�but not always�be processed in-country. Making a visa run is always an option, however.
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| I don't think an e7 needs a criminal check - that's not for teaching much less being around children |
An E-7 is not necessarily for teaching, but it can be. The E-7 is kind of a catch-all visa for professional employment that doesn't fall under another more specific classification. Editorial positions are one type of job that often falls under E-7�but so are teaching jobs at international schools.
Since the E-7 is a very wide classification, Immi has wide latitude to decide what documents and qualifications are necessary for issuance. And since Christopher Paul Neil was on an E-7 (teaching at an international school in Gwangju), I wouldn't be surprised if they require a CBC for teaching E-7s.
That being said, the E-7 doesn't carry the requirements about letters of release, consular interviews, etc. So, if all else fails and the school fails to honor the contractual notice given by the OP, I would wager that she can quit the job and cancel her visa at Immi. They'll give her an exit order, her new job files her visa paperwork for the E-7, and she makes a visa run to Japan when the issuance number comes through. |
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LostinKSpace
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| You gave them three months notice, do not feel any guilt in the slightest that is ample time to find someone, you have acted correctly and the boss is probably playing power games over the LOR because he/she wants to ensure that you keep sweating blood for the cause. Be nice, smile and nod and "help" to find a replacement. |
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snowgirl79
Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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So, I'm thinking these are my options:
Say to my current school that I'll 'help' them find a replacement teacher in return for an LOR. If they refuse this I can:
a) Say I'll leave there and then, pack my bags, get an exit order, go home and come back on a new E7 visa. Would I have any problems getting my new visa if I did this? My E2 doesn't expire until October 28th. I'm getting the impression that if I get an exit order or leave the country and hand in my ARC my school have to cancel my visa within two weeks. Is this correct?
b) Say I'll go to the labor board and contest them to try and get the LOR. Would the labor board support me considering I'm leaving for a better job? |
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Ut videam
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Pocheon-si, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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If you get an exit order, or if you leave the country and hand in your ARC on your way out, your visa is cancelled. The school is completely cut out of the equation. You should have no problem with getting your next visa if you do it this way.
As for the labor board, they probably won't be much help in getting you a LOR. Possible, but not likely.
Particularly if you have the flexibility to change your departure date, you can negotiate from a position of strength. Legally, you're 100% in the right: you gave them the required notice, and they're refusing to honor it. You can lay out their options to them:
- Honor the contract and part with me on good terms (including the LOR and all payments that are due) at the end of the 90-day notice period, and I'll give a good reference to any prospective replacements you refer to me; or
- I'll leave today, hand in my ARC on the way out of the country, and good luck trying to fill my position with zero notice.
If they're smart, they'll cough up the LOR. |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:05 am Post subject: |
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snowgirl - sorry if I confused you by mentioning the labor board - I did because schools are known to flip their tune on a hairpin, so to speak.
if someone tried to fire you, withhold pay, kick you out of your place, any of those things (and it's not out of the question) you need to make sure you have proof that you already provided notice you were leaving the job and that your employer is well aware of it - that would be where the labor board would come in.
I also wouldn't start bargaining about the LOR for your help in finding a new teacher - K logic is NOT western logic - it is NOT you help me, I help you here, not even close. the more you try and help, the weaker it makes you look. you need to stand firm and insist on your LOR when the time comes. the deal is, you don't really need it right away, do you? or what?
I started a really good hakwon spot a few years ago and 3 months in was offered a PS position; I couldn't believe my hakwon gave me an LOR but they did, I didn't need it until the day I left and then gave it to my new school who transfered my visa.
so if you start bargaining they can twist and turn the screws in their favor, even say you need to wait for the new teacher to come, etc. etc.
don't go that route. if you want to help, be specific (review resumes, etc.) but they hired you, they can hire someone else.
good luck. |
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snowgirl79
Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| moosehead wrote: |
snowgirl - sorry if I confused you by mentioning the labor board - I did because schools are known to flip their tune on a hairpin, so to speak.
if someone tried to fire you, withhold pay, kick you out of your place, any of those things (and it's not out of the question) you need to make sure you have proof that you already provided notice you were leaving the job and that your employer is well aware of it - that would be where the labor board would come in.
I also wouldn't start bargaining about the LOR for your help in finding a new teacher - K logic is NOT western logic - it is NOT you help me, I help you here, not even close. the more you try and help, the weaker it makes you look. you need to stand firm and insist on your LOR when the time comes. the deal is, you don't really need it right away, do you? or what?
I started a really good hakwon spot a few years ago and 3 months in was offered a PS position; I couldn't believe my hakwon gave me an LOR but they did, I didn't need it until the day I left and then gave it to my new school who transfered my visa.
so if you start bargaining they can twist and turn the screws in their favor, even say you need to wait for the new teacher to come, etc. etc.
don't go that route. if you want to help, be specific (review resumes, etc.) but they hired you, they can hire someone else.
good luck. |
I take it I'm well within my rights to get out of this contract I'm in as long as I give the 3 months notice, right? I'm pretty sure they'll calm down soon but I'm just really worried they're going to screw things up for me getting my next visa. I guess I don't need the LOR until the last day because I can't be on two visas but I expect my new employer may want it a little bit in advance so that everything's there for the transfer. I think I need to get it in writing that they're going to give it to me, would you agree? I've given them a letter of resignation and have kept a copy for myself, would I be wise to get this signed by someone? I don't know if my boss would do it but someone else at the Hagwon may....I guess I could insist that my boss does. I don't want them turning round saying I didn't give notice. |
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snowgirl79
Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Ut videam wrote: |
Particularly if you have the flexibility to change your departure date, you can negotiate from a position of strength. Legally, you're 100% in the right: you gave them the required notice, and they're refusing to honor it. You can lay out their options to them:
- Honor the contract and part with me on good terms (including the LOR and all payments that are due) at the end of the 90-day notice period, and I'll give a good reference to any prospective replacements you refer to me; or
- I'll leave today, hand in my ARC on the way out of the country, and good luck trying to fill my position with zero notice.
If they're smart, they'll cough up the LOR. |
Succinct and to the point, I like it  I'm 99% sure that if I threatened to walk out the door they would agree to the LOR. This may be my next move after my next pay day |
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moosehead
Joined: 05 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| snowgirl79 wrote: |
| Ut videam wrote: |
Particularly if you have the flexibility to change your departure date, you can negotiate from a position of strength. Legally, you're 100% in the right: you gave them the required notice, and they're refusing to honor it. You can lay out their options to them:
- Honor the contract and part with me on good terms (including the LOR and all payments that are due) at the end of the 90-day notice period, and I'll give a good reference to any prospective replacements you refer to me; or
- I'll leave today, hand in my ARC on the way out of the country, and good luck trying to fill my position with zero notice.
If they're smart, they'll cough up the LOR. |
Succinct and to the point, I like it I'm 99% sure that if I threatened to walk out the door they would agree to the LOR. This may be my next move after my next pay day |
yeah try it and see if it works.
and as for having someone sign your resignation notice, yes, definitely; or use email and an attachment so it's on the record as having sent it. that's what I always do for any kind of paper/memo/notice that's important, then carry a hard copy and hand deliver it just to make sure they have it. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| snowgirl79 wrote: |
| Ut videam wrote: |
Particularly if you have the flexibility to change your departure date, you can negotiate from a position of strength. Legally, you're 100% in the right: you gave them the required notice, and they're refusing to honor it. You can lay out their options to them:
- Honor the contract and part with me on good terms (including the LOR and all payments that are due) at the end of the 90-day notice period, and I'll give a good reference to any prospective replacements you refer to me; or
- I'll leave today, hand in my ARC on the way out of the country, and good luck trying to fill my position with zero notice.
If they're smart, they'll cough up the LOR. |
Succinct and to the point, I like it I'm 99% sure that if I threatened to walk out the door they would agree to the LOR. This may be my next move after my next pay day |
Do NOT use this threatening tactic. It sounds good, but it is a form of extortion and Koreans do not respond well to threats. If you escalate, they could do the same.
1) They could escalate in response and fire you on the spot. You could end up unemployed, unpaid, and find it difficult to get a new visa at the same time.
2) They could agree to your extorted terms and then be fully within their rights to refuse to honor this new "agreement" at the end. You cannot enforce an agreement that has been negotiated through extortion.
It is not a reasonable nor legal means of negotiation to use the threat of breaking a contract in order to win an additional benefit.
(Remember that "breaking a contract in this case means leaving immediately. You can "terminate" your contract legally according to its terms.)
For example:
1) Suppose you have a one week contract. Your employer says, on Wednesday, that unless you agree to work Saturday, he will not pay you for working Monday through Friday.
Many might feel that they have to work on Saturday. Maybe they don't mind earning an extra day's pay.
But, what if you can't work on Saturday. You have to go to your Brother's wedding.
Some would quit on the spot.
The best advice would be: work till Friday, do not show up on Saturday and then expect to be paid and use legal means to collect if not paid. Legally, this would be the best option. Honor the original contract and ignore the illegally exorted amendment.
2) Suppose a teacher gives a school one month's notice that he wants to quit, when the contract requires two months, and further demands that he receive his airplane ticket money even though he is leaving early. The teacher demands to have the new terms put in writing or he will quit immediately.
This is a form of extortion.
Best advice for the school. Agree to whatever the teacher wants verbally, in order to mitigate damages to the school. Then, since the teacher used extortion, refuse to pay the teacher at all on the last day. Instead, serve the teacher with legal papers suing the teacher for breach of contract on his last day.
*****
For a contract to be legal and binding, there has to be consideration on both sides: I agree to work - you agree to pay.
Likewise for an amended contract to be binding there has to be consideration on both sides: I agree to provide this additional service to you - you agree to provide this additional benefit to me.
You are demanding a letter of release in return for nothing. In fact, you are threatening to dishonor the contract without this additional benefit. But there is no consideration. This would not be a binding agreement if agreed to. It is a demand being negotiated under duress. It could, under the worst circumstances, be construed as illegal extortion.
Pay me or I will burn down your building.
Pay me or I will destroy your school.
*******
Unless a letter of release is already mentioned in your contract, your employer is not obligated to give you one. But, by making threats, you are setting yourself up for legal problems.
If you leave without working the notice period reqiured in your contract, your employer can sue you for damage to the school. He will have to have significant damage in order to pursue this, but since you plan to come back to Korea, you will be here for him to sue.
This is why the "midnight run" was created. After you leave Korea, you will almost never be pursued legally in your home country.
Finally, since it will be very unlikely that you will actually need a letter of release in the end, there is no point in going to war in order to get one.
Just plan to work your three month notice period, then leave the country and get a new visa. |
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Ut videam
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Location: Pocheon-si, Gyeonggi-do
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Calling the approach I outlined above "extortion" is a stretch. It's not extortion to give notice that you will terminate the contract immediately if the other party fails to honor its provisions. Ornery, yes, but not extortionate. (I was doing my taxes last night while I was writing, which is enough to make anyone ornery!)
That being said, ontheway does have a point. There's no need for threats, and no need to walk immediately. If they don't give you the LOR, just walk at the end of the 90 days' notice you gave. Turn in your ARC at the airport and�ideally�make sure the immigration officer writes "Cancelled" or "Used" on the visa in your passport. Then you'll be good to go for your new visa�just make sure you left yourself enough time to get it from the consulate back home, or plan on a visa run to Japan after you get here.
This way, you're completely in the right legally speaking AND displaying good faith to boot. You will have honored your contract terms to the full, and acted in the expectation that your employer would do the same. |
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