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| Why night/secretly? Why not day-time/in the open? |
| You fear physical confrontation |
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11% |
[ 2 ] |
| You fear verbal confrontation |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| You fear financial losses |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
| You are tired and don't want to deal with stuff |
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38% |
[ 7 ] |
| All of the above |
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44% |
[ 8 ] |
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| Total Votes : 18 |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Students' views of foreigners- ho-ho-ho-hee-hee-heee. Eeeeeesh. The outcome is pretty much the same whenever a foreigner leaves- the students are shocked for a day and the next candy/sticker waving white face brings cheers and smiles on the students' faces when he/she enters the room and plays the clown. |
The kids at my hagwon might have reacted that way but I can tell you the adult students weren't too impressed, especially seeing as it was their enrollment money that helped pay for her salary. |
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humanuspneumos
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: Fair enough |
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| Fair enough- the adults do get upset when the teacher they like leaves and I do know people who come to Korea with only the intention of leaving for a vacation after six months- however- many scrap that intention after six months because they liked the money too much. A few do leave with that being their prior intention. Still- the bulk go for other reasons- good ones. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Not that there aren't a lot of legitimate runners (I know there are) but it definitely goes both ways and from experience I'm not about to automatically give anyone the benefit of the doubt. |
Does this mean that you judge foreign teachers and hagwon owners equally? |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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It means there are two sides, and cases must be taken on an individual basis.
Going simply on experience with no pre-judging involved, if I went by my own experience alone I would come down on the side of hagwan owners, seeing as I've experienced a stupid runner but never had a bad boss (yes, lucky me). Fortunately I don't judge things so simply. Aside from trying to trip me up, I'm curious about your opinion of my experience. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
It means there are two sides, and cases must be taken on an individual basis.
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You guys are talking as if a potential runner should face a court-of-opinion.
Runner #14848: "Ok, survey says 40% say I'm right to run, 60% say I'm not. I guess I won't go."
Do you guys not think this may be a little self-righteous? If someone is going to run, they are going to run, and people here can *beep* about it all day long; it's not going to change anything.
The way I look at it, if a hagwon owner doesn't take into the account the risk of an employee pulling a runner, and their business fails because someone pulls one, then they had a shaky business model to begin with and probably would of failed sooner or later from some other reason. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| bosintang wrote: |
The way I look at it, if a hagwon owner doesn't take into the account the risk of an employee pulling a runner, and their business fails because someone pulls one, then they had a shaky business model to begin with and probably would of failed sooner or later from some other reason. |
Okay, so let's say you are a hakwon owner. Exactly how would you "take into account the risk of an employee pulling a runner". A lot of hakwons try to do this by: withholding airplane ticket until the 12th month, withholding the bonus , or asking for a security deposit. But people then moan and groan about this. So what would you do? I don't hear too many businesses failing because some person pulled a runner. What people are pointing out, is that the teachers who are left, have to take on a greater share of the workload. |
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humanuspneumos
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:10 pm Post subject: The above poster is right |
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The above poster is right. In fact- stores take into account how much theft is possible/probable before they open their store. The tax system even allows them to write off a certain percentage due to theft (5%?). Though running isn't theft- a realistic business model will take into account the possibility that not everyone will like the job and stay. Just like- not everyone will like 50 years of marriage- though they did take the first step.
Anyway- a school that falls down due to a runner means that somebody behind the wheel isn't good at dealing with parents, teachers, and students. They must be able to smooth things over with all three to a great degree to keep a healthy business. Having a staff that have a nervous breakdown because someone goes means the business wasn't built on something that prepared for an emergency in the first place.
I never understand how they don't have the resources (40-120,000,000 WON a month or more) to have someone who has a lighter schedule and does other light duties hanging around for when the emergency does hit. It's culture- they just seem to hate the idea of someone not looking like they are breaking their .....s. The only way I can understand the money thing is that like our famers (I'm broke. I'm broke. With a new truck.) They are channeling the school's money into places where leverage was needed (secret property???). The idea that this cycle gets empathy from unknowing foreigners is understandable and sad. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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bosintang wrote:
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| You guys are talking as if a potential runner should face a court-of-opinion. |
No, I don't see where you get that interpretation at all. I'm not lecturing people on whether or not to run; however, I'm not going to shut up about it if its being dicussed on Dave's simply because some people think it's a personal thing. Runners have an effect on everybody--whatever their reasons for running. I've already pointed out a situation that affected me personally, so please dispense with the "self-righteous" crap and reread my previous post on the previous page.
My point is that I don't believe the foreigner simply because he is a foreigner. I also don't say "you go girl" to a runner simply because I hear one side of the story.
| Quote: |
| The way I look at it, if a hagwon owner doesn't take into the account the risk of an employee pulling a runner, and their business fails because someone pulls one, then they had a shaky business model to begin with and probably would of failed sooner or later from some other reason. |
As far as a court-of-opinion goes, you seem to be doing some judging yourself.
humanuspneumos wrote:
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| I never understand how they don't have the resources (40-120,000,000 WON a month or more) to have someone who has a lighter schedule and does other light duties hanging around for when the emergency does hit. |
I'm not sure how that would affect the budget--a big chain has no problem, but a smaller operation might not have that luxury. I will agree that a lot of hagwan owners don't have good business sense, but I'm pretty sure economics comes into play with that situation.
the Urban Myth wrote:
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| What people are pointing out, is that the teachers who are left, have to take on a greater share of the workload. |
Exactly. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
| Aside from trying to trip me up, I'm curious about your opinion of my experience. |
I'm sorry to hear that you're co-worker ran for all the wrong reasons. And I would only "try" to trip you up if were already biased in favour of hagwon owners (which you weren't). However, stating that you aren't prepared to give anyone the benifit of the doubt is the exact opposite of how I usually approach these problems. Yes, I'd even listen to the hagwon owner. |
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Cthulhu
Joined: 02 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| However, stating that you aren't prepared to give anyone the benifit of the doubt is the exact opposite of how I usually approach these problems. Yes, I'd even listen to the hagwon owner. |
The more I know (personally) about the parties involved, the more I'm likely to give someone the benefit of the doubt.  |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Okay, so let's say you are a hakwon owner. Exactly how would you "take into account the risk of an employee pulling a runner". A lot of hakwons try to do this by: withholding airplane ticket until the 12th month, withholding the bonus , or asking for a security deposit. But people then moan and groan about this. So what would you do? I don't hear too many businesses failing because some person pulled a runner. What people are pointing out, is that the teachers who are left, have to take on a greater share of the workload. |
If I was a hagwon owner, and my school was going to depend on one or two key foreigners, I would screen them thorughly. I would want a proper interview with them, I would want references, and I would want experienced employees, or employees with teaching credentials. This won't prevent a runner, but it will significantly cut down the odds of one happening. And yes, the labour market is tight, but this is the cost of doing business properly.
If my hagwon was larger, I would keep my employees on a lighter schedule than necessary, to allow them enough room to pick up the slack in case one employee isn't available for *whatever* reason, a runner being one of them.
I would ask for a security deposit. Not a large one, but one large enough to matter. At my current job I had to pay a 200,000 deposit my first three months here. The school took the significant risk of buying me an airplane ticket, so I had no problems with putting down this deposit.
Finally, I would put a release clause in my employees' contracts and *honour* them when an employee tells you they want to leave, for whatever reason. It is far better that you lose an unhappy employee with notice than you lose an unhappy employee without notice.
Yes, you're right. People have to take on a greater share of responsibility when someone pulls a runner. I can definitely vouch for this being at a hagwon where a foreigner recently pulled one. However, this is true for *any* reason someone might not be available for a job. Furthermore, this is true in *any* country in *any* job. A smart business will plan for this. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
As far as a court-of-opinion goes, you seem to be doing some judging yourself.
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I guess I value myself in being pragmatic. Preaching like a Sunday school teacher to someone about to pull a runner might make one feel warm and fuzzy inside, but chances are it's not going to be effective. It certainly wasn't effective at my hagwon. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Good points, Boshintang, but there is one possible alternative to teaching credentials. That is to provide one week of basic training to the foreign teacher if s/he is not a qualified teacher. After all, this is often stated on the contract (which many on this board revere so religiously and unquestioningly); although the reality is often a book in your lap and a "You teachee very interesting". Otherwise, they should simply ask for qualified teachers and leave it at that. |
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Barking Mad Lord Snapcase
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Cthulhu wrote: |
| My point is that I don't believe the foreigner simply because he is a foreigner. |
I agree with this sentiment. What is unfortunate, however, is that some hagwon owners would make some pretty strange decisions (to us) and believe that they are doing the right thing. Running out on a corrupt hagwon owner is understandable. Running out on a well-meaning hagwon owner who does not understand Westerners (ie. our desire to be informed in advance, to have free choice outside work hours, to cross the road to use a real toilet, to adhere to a diet that keeps us healthy and refuse items that may cause an allergic reaction, to not equate harmless decisions with insults) is unfortunate, but it happens.
It seems that the cultural barrier is much greater than the language barrier. Perhaps overcoming the latter may help one overcome the former; perhaps my mistake was in thinking that the reverse was true. What could not be overcome, however, is that my way of thinking was always the exact opposite of Confucianism, even when compared with other Australians. There was absolutely no way in Hell I could actually think or feel like that, no matter how much theory I understood. It's as if I finally discovered my own identity by discovering precisely what I was not. This is hardly an exaggeration. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose it's inevitable that a thread asking for which reasons to take an MNR would get sidetracked on the moral and ethical question of whether it's a nice thing to do.
A lot of us have been lucky, and a lot of bosses are smart enough to wait until time for severance and airfare reimbursement to start looking for ways to cheat us. However, I've seen some specific instances where I did not blame a coworker in the least for jumping on a plane. How about you? Can you even imagine?
Here are mine. I'd be booking a flight if :
* I didn't get paid for a month after I was supposed to, and then only partially.
* I was a frequent subject of verbal abuse and insults.
* My schedule was being constantly jacked around on me in ways that were beyond normal and beyond what was happening to colleagues around me.
* Physical violence against me either occurred or was threatened.
* My housing gets changed around on me, either in violation of my contract or simply in way that results in an unreasonable living situation.
* I see other teachers being similarly cheated or abused and strongly suspect it will happen to me pretty soon also. These are just a few - these are things I've seen happen, though as I've said I've been lucky (and damn careful, sure) and so far it's always been me who is taking on the extra work when someone takes off unexpectedly - and usually, I've been able use that to my advantage also, a bargaining chip to get things that I wanted or needed at a time when the boss needs me more ... you know, like "Hey, you want me to stay on the team, so show me you're on my team also." |
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