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Obama this. Obama that.
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BS.Dos.



Joined: 29 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:52 am    Post subject: Obama this. Obama that. Reply with quote

Like your head of state is gonna change anything.

Get a grip and snap out of it.
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Troll this. Troll that.

Like a Brit is going to have anything substantive to contribute.
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BS.Dos.



Joined: 29 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^Nice.

I've just been talking to an FT from Ohio who reckons that only 10 of the 50 states actually make any money for the union. I can't verify what she said, but if it's true, wouldn't something a little more decentralized be more efficient, like a confederation perhaps?
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BS.Dos. wrote:
^Nice.

I've just been talking to an FT from Ohio who reckons that only 10 of the 50 states actually make any money for the union. I can't verify what she said, but if it's true, wouldn't something a little more decentralized be more efficient, like a confederation perhaps?


At least our head of state is elected rather than being the product of centuries of in-breeding.

What does it mean to 'make money for the union'? Even if the reply to that question makes sense, how would changing the political structure of the nation change the economic productiveness of the allegedly under-performing states, if that is what is being claimed?
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
BS.Dos. wrote:
^Nice.

I've just been talking to an FT from Ohio who reckons that only 10 of the 50 states actually make any money for the union. I can't verify what she said, but if it's true, wouldn't something a little more decentralized be more efficient, like a confederation perhaps?


At least our head of state is elected rather than being the product of centuries of in-breeding.

What does it mean to 'make money for the union'? Even if the reply to that question makes sense, how would changing the political structure of the nation change the economic productiveness of the allegedly under-performing states, if that is what is being claimed?


I agree with Ya-Ta on all counts.

Where does your friend get the idea that 10 of the 50 states are making money for the union?

Look at it this way: cost of living is quite variable within the United States. I chose Louisville, KY b/c it had a small-town somewhat cosmopolitan feel with reasonable cost-of-living and I could get away from the assholes on the East Coast. You're going to make money in proportion to where you're located. Kentucky simply cannot compete with New York City; however, cost-of-living here is more reasonable. If the gov't provided food stamps for KY, it'd be cheaper than the same food stamps in Manhattan.

BTW, I do believe in more of Federal structure providing more state autonomy than we have now . . . I won't use the term Confederation because it has a doubly fail connotation in the States (Articles of Confederation + Confederate States of America). But that has less to do with economic disparities or fairness and more to do with representation and local democratic impact: I simply believe the US Congress has too much power and has not wielded it well . . .
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I won't use the term Confederation because it has a triple fail connotation in the States (Articles of Confederation + Confederate States of America + Confederacy of Dunces).


Addition of details at no extra charge. Very Happy
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BS.Dos.



Joined: 29 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At least our head of state is elected rather than being the product of centuries of in-breeding.

Not sure where that comment is coming from so I'll ignore it.

Quote:

Where does your friend get the idea that 10 of the 50 states are making money for the union?

I've no idea. Sorry I can't substantiate, but she spoke for some time about 'rust belt' economics and the wider Ohioan rural flight. I wouldn't have given it much thought only she mentioned taxes both specifically and disparagingly; city, state, federal etc, something which I've heard before.

Quote:
BTW, I do believe in more of Federal structure providing more state autonomy than we have now . . . I won't use the term Confederation because it has a doubly fail connotation in the States (Articles of Confederation + Confederate States of America).

That's interesting, but I'm wondering if that's reflective of the wider population, especially given the Texan Sovereignty thread kicking about atm.

I'm not trying to antagonize or inflame. I think the state of US federalism is a relevant and topical issue atm. Be interesting to get some perspectives from the progressives.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
BTW, I do believe in more of Federal structure providing more state autonomy than we have now . . . I won't use the term Confederation because it has a doubly fail connotation in the States (Articles of Confederation + Confederate States of America).

That's interesting, but I'm wondering if that's reflective of the wider population, especially given the Texan Sovereignty thread kicking about atm.

I'm not trying to antagonize or inflame. I think the state of US federalism is a relevant and topical issue atm. Be interesting to get some perspectives from the progressives.


According to polls, around 70-75% of the public denies states the right to secede. This has been the majority view since before 1860 and was vindicated in the spring of 1865. In the century and a half since then, secession has been off the table as a 'solution' to political grievances. Only fringe loonies have kept the idea alive. Unfortunately, the governor of a major state has brought the idea back to the mainstream of discussion. The failure of other leaders of the party to denounce the theory of nullification and its extreme form, secession, has the potential to destroy the Republican Party.

Debate on any particular bill or policy on whether it is within the parameters of the constitutional division of powers has been on-going since the First Congress met in 1789. The constitutionally protected methods of redress of grievance are in place and that is how it has always been and how it should remain.

The question is not how progressives feel about this issue--that has been clear for a couple of centuries. The question is whether conservatives will remain loyal or turn traitor.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Obama this. Obama that. Reply with quote

BS.Dos. wrote:
Like your head of state is gonna change anything.

Get a grip and snap out of it.

That is what I and others have been trying to say.

See these threads:

More Obama changes...

OBushama continues concealing torture

On Wiretapping, Obama Worse Than Bush

Obama admin corroborates/affirms W. Bush admin's position...

NYT: Obama's war on terror may resemble Bush's

Obama admin backs Bush secrets

Obama: the same or worse?

Obama, first-rate Republican

Obama will bring real change

"Bush, McCain, or Obama: mere faces to be changed"

Obama's illusory "withdrawal"

Choreographing Permanent War

American Foreign Relations: No Likely Changes, Come January

Obama for a "change"

O'Bomber may be opposed

Will a Republocrat save us?
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Robot_Teacher



Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Robotting Around the World

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we talking about the DS of A? For years, I've thought of it as the Divided States of America. Not only is each state unique, but the American people choose segregation and intimidation as a way of life using the legal and justice systems. Obama administration is not going to fix anything or make it better as that's not where the real power is. The power is held CEO's, filthy rich folks, lawyers, doctors, and the justice system. Too bad it's got to be that way.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Obama Deception

The full-length version of Alex Jones' documentary, The Obama Deception, is now available on youtube in High Quality.

This extraordinary film explains how this relative unknown went from State Senator to US President in six years, and goes into depth about the power base behind his meteoric rise.

It goes into detail about how he is leading the bankers' efforts to bankrupt the country, but also gives hope and concrete measures on what to do to resist.

Very informative and highly recommended.
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Rory_Calhoun27



Joined: 14 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah.... let me get right on that.....


but only AFTER I see the documentary on how gwb ruined the economy people BRAGGED that he would take to higher levels than Bill Clinton..... he IS the first MBA to be president, after all! Wink

My guess is there are plenty of Political Psychologist PHD students in grad school right now looking on dissertations re: gwb's need to finish the job his dad started in iraq to win his affection..... now that's the book I want to read!
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:35 pm    Post subject: Obama doesn�t talk like Bush; he just acts like him Reply with quote

Here's another one:

Obama doesn�t talk like Bush; he just acts like him

THE STATE JOURNAL-REGISTER
Posted Mar 20, 2009 @ 12:02 AM


NEW YORK � You can�t blame Dick Cheney for being annoyed at Barack Obama. Obama is closing Guant�namo. He�s ordering the CIA to interrogate prisoners according to the rules written in the Army Field Manual, which doesn�t allow torture. He�s even phasing out such classic Bushian phrases as �enemy combatant� and �war on terror.�

But the dark prince of neoconservatism should relax. Obama�s inaugural address may have promised to �reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals,� but � in all the ways that matter � he�s keeping all of Bush�s outrageous policies in place. Sure, he talks a good game about �moving forward.� But nothing has really changed. From reading your e-mails to asserting the right to assassinate American citizens to bailing out companies whose executives pay themselves big bonuses, Obama�s changes are nothing but toothless rhetoric.

Closing Gitmo, reported The New York Times, was merely �a move that seemed intended to symbolically separate the new administration from Bush detention policies. But in a much anticipated court filing, the Justice Department argued that the president has the authority to detain terrorism suspects there without criminal charges, much as the Bush administration had asserted. It provided a broad definition of those who can be held, which was not significantly different from the one used by the Bush administration.�

What will happen to the 241 POWs still at Gitmo? They won�t be called �enemy combatants� anymore but most won�t be going home. �The filing signaled that, as long as Guant�namo remains open, the new administration will aggressively defend its ability to hold some detainees there,� wrote the Times. Where will they go after that?

Welcome to Gitmo II � courtesy of Barack Obama.

Countless victims have been tortured by U.S. military personnel at Bagram, the U.S. air base in Afghanistan where Bush imprisoned 600 people without charges. Some were murdered in the camp�s notorious �salt pit.�

�Even children have not been spared,� says Amnesty International.
Now Bagram is being expanded � nearly doubled in size � in order to accommodate 200-plus detainees from Gitmo, as well as future POWs from Obama�s expanded war against Afghanistan. As bad as Guant�namo was, conditions at Bagram are worse.

Extraordinary renditions, the Times reports in a different article, will continue under Obama.

�In little-noticed confirmation testimony recently,� says the paper, �Obama nominees endorsed continuing the CIA�s program of transferring prisoners to other countries without legal rights, and indefinitely detaining terrorism suspects without trials even if they were arrested far from a war zone.�

During the 2008 campaign Obama�s critics accused him of saying nothing, albeit beautifully. Now that we�ve gotten to know him a bit, it�s time to refine that assessment: He�s just a weasel. An eloquent weasel. But a weasel who says the right things while doing the opposite.

On March 9, Obama ordered federal agencies to suspend Bush�s infamous �signing statements,� sneaky documents issued after the signing of a bill that ordered government agencies not to enforce the very same bill he�d just approved in front of the cameras. Signing statements, says the American Bar Association, use one-man dictatorial rule to negate the people�s will as expressed by Congress and are thus �contrary to the rule of law and our constitutional separation of powers.�

�Yet two days later � literally � Obama signed a $410 billion spending bill and appended to it a signing statement claiming that he had the constitutional authority to ignore several of its oversight provisions,� writes Glenn Greenwald of Slate.

Greenwald regrets having to quote the vile Rich Lowry of the right-wing National Review magazine. So do I. But even the right is right sometimes:

�Barack Obama has perfected a three-step maneuver that could never even be attempted by a politician lacking his rhetorical skill or cool cynicism. First: Denounce your presidential predecessor for a given policy, energizing your party�s base and capitalizing on his abiding unpopularity. Second: Pretend to have reversed that policy upon taking office with a symbolic act or high-profile statement. Third: Adopt a version of that same policy, knowing that it�s the only way to govern responsibly or believing that doing otherwise is too difficult.�

This week�s example is Obama�s grandstanding over $165 million in bonuses paid to executives of AIG, which received billions in federal bailout money. He feigned outrage: �How do they justify this outrage to the taxpayers who are keeping the company afloat?� But his Treasury Department knew about the bonuses � which amount to roughly 55 cents per American � ages ago. He also knows there isn�t much the government can do legally to claw the money back.

Unlike the word count limit of this column, Obama�s perfidy knows no limits. He�s already become more dangerous to democracy and basic human rights than George W. Bush. Unlike Bush, he has no political opposition. Cheney may nitpick, but most Republicans are happy to see Bush�s policies remain in place. Meanwhile, liberals remain loyal, silent and tacitly pro-torture.

Ted Rall is a columnist for Universal Press Syndicate.
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Tiger Beer



Joined: 07 Feb 2003

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BS.Dos. wrote:
^Nice.

I've just been talking to an FT from Ohio who reckons that only 10 of the 50 states actually make any money for the union. I can't verify what she said, but if it's true, wouldn't something a little more decentralized be more efficient, like a confederation perhaps?

This is in relation to the Texas governor who wanted Texas to secede. He claimed that Texas pays the most taxes and gets the least back.

Shortly after that statement, researchers looked up the numbers and found that Texas was basically a 'welfare state', similar to Alaska, Mississippi, etc. 'Welfare states' mean they get more from the federal government money than they give.

The States which give the most are the predictable states as you'd imagine - New York, California, Illinios, Massachussets, etc.

---

Regarding decentralizing the federal government. Great, idea. I don't personally believe the U.S. Federal government should be dictating all things to all 360+ million people either.

Then again the massive amount of money needed for military expenditures are so massive...you'd seriously need to get that under control to lower all of these taxes and make these 'Tea Parties' make any sense whatsoever.
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BS.Dos.



Joined: 29 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised to hear that Texas is pulling on DC. I'd have thought that it would've been the other way round tbh. I'm sure that I read on here a few weeks back someone was saying that Texas has a lower than average state tax band. Surely, If they're pulling more out of Washington than they're putting in, doesn't Washington have any say in how they (TX) set their state tax or are state taxes set by Washington?

I was in NY in Feb and had dinner with one of my GF friends who was telling me that for every dollar NY sends to Washington, they only get 0.80 cents back. He wasn't best pleased about it either.
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