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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| But Texas and a few other states giving Uncle Sam grief, I see that happening. Nothing wrong with that. |
There's nothing wrong with certain States wanting to talk about the issue of States Rights; that's a perfectly valid issue worthy of being debated. There's nothing wrong with politicians in certain areas of the Nation making it clear they disagree with the Federal Government's actions and proposing alternatives. There's nothing wrong with the protests that have been happening. Hell, there would be nothing wrong with the Governor of Texas standing up and calling for Obama to be impeached if he likes.
There's something wrong with legislating hypothetical secession, or even a Governor talking about it in his public capacity for his own political gain. Individual citizens talking about it, that's fine. Government officials doing the same in their public capacity is not. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, I agree. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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This article by Gail Collins sums up the hypocrisy of the secessionists better than any other (The best one may be the last one...Perry, who...):
*True, when it comes to taxation without representation, they were slightly different from colonial New Englanders on the minor point of having representation.
*the states where anti-tax sentiment is strongest are frequently the same states that get way more back from the federal government than they send in
*have you noticed how places that pride themselves on being superpatriotic seem to have the most people who want to abandon the country entirely and set up shop on their own?
*Later, while Perry was holding another press conference after signing a bill extolling states rights, he repeated the part about this being �a great union� but then said that he understood the secessionists� feelings.
*This is not exactly a ringing endorsement. It�s as if your spouse pointedly noted that it�s extremely easy to dissolve marriages these days, then added that although he was not currently advocating a divorce, he certainly understood why other people who knew you both might think it was a good idea.
*And what about my country, right or wrong? Weren�t there complaints, some from Texan quarters, during the last election that Barack Obama seemed insufficiently up front about his love of country? Isn�t threatening to dissolve the union over the stimulus package a little less American than failure to wear a flag pin?
*how, by the way, can you stand at a rally waving the American flag while yelling �Secede�?
*Perry, who... used to be a cotton farmer, a group that seems to have a special talent for combining rugged individualism with intransigent demands for government assistance. Even as we speak, the Obama administration budget-cutters are trying to end a longstanding federal practice of paying the costs of storing the entire national cotton crop every year. No other farmers get this kind of special treatment, and I am sure Perry�s failure to mention it when he calls for an end to corporate bailouts
We don�t want to blame all Texans for the high jinks in Austin. It�s a state full of lovely people, three-fourths of whom, according to a recent Rasmussen Reports poll, have no desire whatsoever to secede from the United States.
But Perry really understands how that other quarter feels.
Twitters From Texas
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/opinion/18collins.html?_r=1&ref=opinion |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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If TEXAS is such a drain, such a huge monkey wrench in the well lubricated,
highly efficient political, economic and humanitarian machine that is the not-so USA,
why are you so adamant in telling us we can't secede?
Seems you'd be encouraging us and saying, "Good riddance." |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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why are you so adamant in telling us we can't secede?
Seems you'd be encouraging us and saying, "Good riddance." |
And reward a minority for whining? I have too much respect for the country and constitution for that. It's a double insult to the country to wave the flag and shout, "Secede!"
I did however see virtue in the idea of selling Texas back to Mexico. The opening bid was $100,000. As several others have remarked, "Then we could invade another oil-rich country." Maybe the Russians want Alaska enough to pay for it? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| mole wrote: |
If TEXAS is such a drain, such a huge monkey wrench in the well lubricated,
highly efficient political, economic and humanitarian machine that is the not-so USA,
why are you so adamant in telling us we can't secede?
Seems you'd be encouraging us and saying, "Good riddance." |
Its just some hypocritical Republican governor trying to score political points against a threatening arch-conservative colleague before an election because we all know that Texas' districts are gerrymandered to hell, because that drama played for a full two years on every American's TV screen, and thus only the most partisan and extreme candidate can fare well in any election because their districts are designed to appeal to those extremes.
Jesus Christ, Texas, after giving us George W. Bush would you have the sense to sit down and shut up? Its not all about YOU, its really not. Stop trying to derail the legitimate States Rights movement with your quasi-nationalist 'Texas is the best' mentality. You're just another state.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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You're just another state.
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Back in the late 90's I was at a big party in Daejon. For several minutes I eavesdropped on a conversation of a Texas dude and a tasty young Korean woman. He had been going on for several minutes about how Texas was the biggest state in the Union. I finally had to insert that Alaska was a lot bigger. Grudgingly, he said, "OK, but Texas is the biggest state, except for Alaska." 
| Quote: |
| derail the legitimate States Rights movement |
I preferred your word choice of the last few days where you used 'autonomy'. States Rights carries a lot of baggage with it. Through my growing up years it was used as code for protecting segregation laws from interference from liberals...like LBJ. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| mole wrote: |
If TEXAS is such a drain, such a huge monkey wrench in the well lubricated,
highly efficient political, economic and humanitarian machine that is the not-so USA,
why are you so adamant in telling us we can't secede?
Seems you'd be encouraging us and saying, "Good riddance." |
No one is telling you that you can't leave the Union. I don't think anyone would lose sleep if the minority of Texans who are genuinely interested in leaving the Union just up and left. Go where ever you like. You just can't take American land with you. The land of Texas is a part of the United States, and it will remain that way.
Hell, I hear the Principality of Sealand is for sale. Why not buy that? They even use the Sealand Dollar which is worth 1 U.S. Dollar. Easy money conversion for you. Given Texans are so rugged, special, and uniquely capable I'm sure it will quickly evolve into a world power under your enlightened libertarian rule. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| No one is telling you that you can't leave the Union. I don't think anyone would lose sleep if the minority of Texans who are genuinely interested in leaving the Union just up and left. Go where ever you like. You just can't take American land with you. The land of Texas is a part of the United States, and it will remain that way. |
Why not? After all, the Americans took Mexican land that is now Texas from Mexico. Who's to say it will stay that way forever?
I detect some real historical chauvinism here. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Bacasper..........you...are...wrong.
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What was the cause of the U.S.-Mexican War?
In 1845, with the the almost unanimous consent of its citizens, the Republic of Texas was annexed by the United States. This was the underlying cause of the war. The problem was that Mexico objected to annexation, holding that Texas was still part of that country, even though Texans had fought and won their independence nearly ten years earlier and had been formally recognized as a sovereign nation by the United States, Great Britain, France, and other countries.
Some historians seek to blame the United States for the war but it was clearly the fault of Mexican leaders such as Mariano Paredes, whose unwillingness to concede the loss of Texas and whose refusal to negotiate with the United States in respect to the independence of Texas and its border pushed the two nations to the brink of war.
On April 25, 1846, after Texas joined the United States, a large body of Mexican troops crossed the Rio Grande and ambushed a small group of American soldiers, killing sixteen and taking the remainder prisoner. U.S. troops under the command of General Zachary Taylor had taken up a position on the north bank of the Rio Grande in the spring of 1846, after Mexican President Mariano Paredes refused to negotiate with the United States and threatened an invasion of Texas.
By serving in the war with Mexico, U.S. soldiers were defending the right of a free people, that is the citizens of the Republic of Texas, to determine their own destiny, namely to become part of the United States. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Here is more for those who think Texas and other land was "stolen" from Mexico.
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Wasn't the war a plot by President Polk to steal land from Mexico?
The charge that the war with Mexico was a plot to steal land from Mexico was first put forward by Whig politicians in an effort to discredit Democratic President James K. Polk and his administration. Although there is absolutely no proof to substantiate this accusation, some historians have also sought to promote this view simply because Polk had hoped to buy California from Mexico.
While it is true that the United States acquired a large amount of territory from Mexico as one of the terms of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, it is often forgotten that the U.S. paid Mexico $15 million for this land, that the land held less than 1% of Mexico's population, that Mexico exercised very little actual control over it, and that some of its citizens were actually in favor of either British or American rule.
After the war, Mexico's treasury was depleted. There was no money to pay the millions of dollars in debts Mexico had owed private U.S. citizens for decades but Mexico had plenty of mostly unoccupied land. The territory that was acquired from Mexico constituted an indemnity for the cost of a war the United States had not sought and in return for the United States government's agreement to pay Mexico's long unpaid debts to U.S. citizens. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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When did the war begin and end?
The U.S. - Mexican War began on April 25, 1846. It ended when the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed on February 2, 1848. However, fighting between Mexican guerrillas and U.S. troops continued for several months afterward. The last American troops left Mexico on August 2, 1848 |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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dmbfan, thank you for the post proving I am right that Texas was indeed once part of Mexico, even though you did not give your source so that we can check for accuracy. (I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like Bill O'Reilly.)
You really oughtta buy a vowel. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| No one is telling you that you can't leave the Union. I don't think anyone would lose sleep if the minority of Texans who are genuinely interested in leaving the Union just up and left. Go where ever you like. You just can't take American land with you. The land of Texas is a part of the United States, and it will remain that way. |
Why not? After all, the Americans took Mexican land that is now Texas from Mexico. Who's to say it will stay that way forever?
I detect some real historical chauvinism here. |
I don't agree it's historical chauvinism. The historic situation in which Texas was seized from Mexico is not the same situation we find ourselves in today. Military technology -- particularly Western military technology -- has evolved massively since then, and warfare is fought in a totally different fashion. Seizing and keeping Texas from the United States would be boarderline impossible. Constant air raids, massive amounts of readily availible troops nearby who can be armed with very effective weaponry, strategic missile capabilities...
It's just not the same world it was in the low technology era in which Texas was seized from Mexico. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| After all, the Americans took Mexican land that is now Texas from Mexico |
THAT is what you said.
Care to reclarify? Perhaps you meant something else?
dmbfan |
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