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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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Let's see...A. Gonzalez, J. Yoo, D. Addington, D. Feith - can Bush and Cheney be far behind?
The Bush Six to Be Indicted
Spanish prosecutors will seek criminal charges against Alberto Gonzales and five high-ranking Bush administration officials for sanctioning torture at Guant�namo.
by Scott Horton
Spanish prosecutors have decided to press forward with a criminal investigation targeting former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five top associates over their role in the torture of five Spanish citizens held at Guant�namo, several reliable sources close to the investigation have told The Daily Beast. Their decision is expected to be announced on Tuesday before the Spanish central criminal court, the Audencia Nacional, in Madrid. But the decision is likely to raise concerns with the human-rights community on other points: They will seek to have the case referred to a different judge.
Both Washington and Madrid appear determined not to allow the pending criminal investigation to get in the way of improved relations.
The six defendants�in addition to Gonzales, Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney�s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith�are accused of having given the green light to the torture and mistreatment of prisoners held in U.S. detention in �the war on terror.� The case arises in the context of a pending proceeding before the court involving terrorism charges against five Spaniards formerly held at Guant�namo. A group of human-rights lawyers originally filed a criminal complaint asking the court to look at the possibility of charges against the six American lawyers. Baltasar Garz�n Real, the investigating judge, accepted the complaint and referred it to Spanish prosecutors for a view as to whether they would accept the case and press it forward. �The evidence provided was more than sufficient to justify a more comprehensive investigation,� one of the lawyers associated with the prosecution stated.
more at link
However, there's been a reprieve, but it is not over yet.
New Hope for the Bush Six
In a dramatic turn, Spain�s attorney general has intervened in the prosecution of Alberto Gonzales and five other Bush lawyers for permitting torture.
In a dramatic turn in Madrid this morning, Spain's attorney general has stepped into the case involving former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five former senior Bush administration lawyers, overruling the decision of career prosecutors to adopt a criminal complaint against them and to proceed with an investigation. But this does not mark the end of the case�it now goes back to Judge Baltasar Garzon, who had originally launched the case and must decide whether it will go forward notwithstanding the Spanish attorney general�s call. Garzon retains ultimate authority in the matter.
The Spanish attorney general appears to have adopted arguments that were previously offered by the Bush Justice Department.
As previously reported in The Daily Beast, Spanish prosecutors attached to the central criminal court, the Audenica Nacional, reached a decision this week to proceed with the criminal case against Gonzales and the five others who were involved in decision making�Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney�s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith�to introduce a regime of harsh interrogation techniques including torture at Guant�namo.
A 37-page justification of the conclusion was prepared and circulated within the prosecutors� office earlier this week. This morning, however, Spain�s attorney general, Candido Conde Pumpido, announced that he had overridden the career prosecutors� decision and would not permit them to adopt the complaint. The attorney general stated that any torture investigation should focus on those directly engaged in implementing torture techniques. He dismissed the notion that lawyers could be held accountable simply for issuing legal opinions, and suggested that this process was privileged and somehow insulated against criminal inquiry. �We cannot support this action,� he stated, referring to the pending criminal complaint. In so doing, the Spanish attorney general appears to have adopted arguments that were previously offered by the Bush Justice Department and which were raised by Douglas J. Feith in his own defense in a column published two weeks ago in The Wall Street Journal.
The Spanish prosecutors report to the attorney general and he is entitled to review and modify their decisions much in the way that the U.S. attorney general supervises and directs the work of career federal prosecutors. Interventions of this sort, however, are fairly unusual. �The circumstances of the attorney general�s announcement suggest that political intervention at a very high level has occurred,� remarked one lawyer involved with the complaint. The attorney general�s intervention may well reflect the concern of the government of Prime Minister Jose Zapatero over relations with the new Obama administration. The Spanish and U.S. governments have been working to improve relations following a rocky period under President Bush.
The criminal case against the Bush Six remains pending with the Audencia Nacional and before Judge Garzon, and the Spanish attorney general�s decision not to adopt the case makes it far more likely that Garzon himself will retain control of the case. In the Spanish criminal-justice system, the decision as to whether a criminal prosecution will go forward rests with the judge�not with the prosecutors or the attorney general.
In the meantime, the Bush Six remain subject to possible arrest or extradition at the discretion of Judge Garzon or another judge of the Spanish courts. It is highly unlikely that extradition would be sought at this point, according to reliable sources, but if any of the defendants were to travel abroad�particularly to any of the 25 countries in which the European arrest warrant is honored�they might face arrest. A similar process launched the case of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet, which was initiated and conducted by Judge Garzon. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Let's see...A. Gonzalez, J. Yoo, D. Addington, D. Feith - can Bush and Cheney be far behind?
The Bush Six to Be Indicted
Spanish prosecutors will seek criminal charges against Alberto Gonzales and five high-ranking Bush administration officials for sanctioning torture at Guant�namo.
by Scott Horton
Spanish prosecutors have decided to press forward with a criminal investigation targeting former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five top associates over their role in the torture of five Spanish citizens held at Guant�namo, several reliable sources close to the investigation have told The Daily Beast. Their decision is expected to be announced on Tuesday before the Spanish central criminal court, the Audencia Nacional, in Madrid. But the decision is likely to raise concerns with the human-rights community on other points: They will seek to have the case referred to a different judge.
Both Washington and Madrid appear determined not to allow the pending criminal investigation to get in the way of improved relations.
The six defendants�in addition to Gonzales, Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney�s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith�are accused of having given the green light to the torture and mistreatment of prisoners held in U.S. detention in �the war on terror.� The case arises in the context of a pending proceeding before the court involving terrorism charges against five Spaniards formerly held at Guant�namo. A group of human-rights lawyers originally filed a criminal complaint asking the court to look at the possibility of charges against the six American lawyers. Baltasar Garz�n Real, the investigating judge, accepted the complaint and referred it to Spanish prosecutors for a view as to whether they would accept the case and press it forward. �The evidence provided was more than sufficient to justify a more comprehensive investigation,� one of the lawyers associated with the prosecution stated.
more at link
However, there's been a reprieve, but it is not over yet.
New Hope for the Bush Six
In a dramatic turn, Spain�s attorney general has intervened in the prosecution of Alberto Gonzales and five other Bush lawyers for permitting torture.
In a dramatic turn in Madrid this morning, Spain's attorney general has stepped into the case involving former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five former senior Bush administration lawyers, overruling the decision of career prosecutors to adopt a criminal complaint against them and to proceed with an investigation. But this does not mark the end of the case�it now goes back to Judge Baltasar Garzon, who had originally launched the case and must decide whether it will go forward notwithstanding the Spanish attorney general�s call. Garzon retains ultimate authority in the matter.
The Spanish attorney general appears to have adopted arguments that were previously offered by the Bush Justice Department.
As previously reported in The Daily Beast, Spanish prosecutors attached to the central criminal court, the Audenica Nacional, reached a decision this week to proceed with the criminal case against Gonzales and the five others who were involved in decision making�Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney�s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith�to introduce a regime of harsh interrogation techniques including torture at Guant�namo.
A 37-page justification of the conclusion was prepared and circulated within the prosecutors� office earlier this week. This morning, however, Spain�s attorney general, Candido Conde Pumpido, announced that he had overridden the career prosecutors� decision and would not permit them to adopt the complaint. The attorney general stated that any torture investigation should focus on those directly engaged in implementing torture techniques. He dismissed the notion that lawyers could be held accountable simply for issuing legal opinions, and suggested that this process was privileged and somehow insulated against criminal inquiry. �We cannot support this action,� he stated, referring to the pending criminal complaint. In so doing, the Spanish attorney general appears to have adopted arguments that were previously offered by the Bush Justice Department and which were raised by Douglas J. Feith in his own defense in a column published two weeks ago in The Wall Street Journal.
The Spanish prosecutors report to the attorney general and he is entitled to review and modify their decisions much in the way that the U.S. attorney general supervises and directs the work of career federal prosecutors. Interventions of this sort, however, are fairly unusual. �The circumstances of the attorney general�s announcement suggest that political intervention at a very high level has occurred,� remarked one lawyer involved with the complaint. The attorney general�s intervention may well reflect the concern of the government of Prime Minister Jose Zapatero over relations with the new Obama administration. The Spanish and U.S. governments have been working to improve relations following a rocky period under President Bush.
The criminal case against the Bush Six remains pending with the Audencia Nacional and before Judge Garzon, and the Spanish attorney general�s decision not to adopt the case makes it far more likely that Garzon himself will retain control of the case. In the Spanish criminal-justice system, the decision as to whether a criminal prosecution will go forward rests with the judge�not with the prosecutors or the attorney general.
In the meantime, the Bush Six remain subject to possible arrest or extradition at the discretion of Judge Garzon or another judge of the Spanish courts. It is highly unlikely that extradition would be sought at this point, according to reliable sources, but if any of the defendants were to travel abroad�particularly to any of the 25 countries in which the European arrest warrant is honored�they might face arrest. A similar process launched the case of former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet, which was initiated and conducted by Judge Garzon. |
Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers.
How much do you want to bet that this goes away (just like the other stuff you posted about Bush?) How's that case going by the way? Bush indicted yet? |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Spanish could always give Feith an ultimatum: either surrender to Spanish police or they'll send a secret agent to yank that silly toupee off his head in public. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| The establishment is above the law. Duh. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
Two things. First of all Spain has no authority over those American citizens as they are not in Spain.
And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards?
Here's a question for you. Why do you think AMERICAN prosecutors aren't going after these people? |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
Two things. First of all Spain has no authority over those American citizens as they are not in Spain.
And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards?
Here's a question for you. Why do you think AMERICAN prosecutors aren't going after these people? |
Obama administration doesn't have the political will to do it. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| catman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
Two things. First of all Spain has no authority over those American citizens as they are not in Spain.
And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards?
Here's a question for you. Why do you think AMERICAN prosecutors aren't going after these people? |
Obama administration doesn't have the political will to do it. |
So you are telling us, that cases only get prosecuted if the ruling party of the time wishes? So you can do all sorts of illegal things and as long as the administration doesn't have the political will to go after you, you won't get in trouble? |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
Thats really stupid. So if I break some law in Spain or France or wherever, then I am subject to the laws in those countries despite not breaking the laws while in that country? Anyone with any common sense knows this is a ridiculous claim to make.
2nd of all why the hell would Obama do it? Doing this means that the US is putting itself under the jurisdiction of other nations' laws. A severely retarded thing to do or to expect to be done. The US will never do it, and while I would like to see Bush in prison, it should be the US not some other country prosecuting him. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards? |
Most bilateral extradition treaties require the crime to be an offense in both countries to be extraditable. If there is a crime with the same elements in the requested country, it is obligated under the treaty to extradite. They do not do a review of the evidence but assume the legal authorities in the requesting party had enough evidence to indict.
| Quote: |
| And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. |
I must admit I am shocked to learn this. But your fetish for George W. Bush??? That's perverse! |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| 3MB wrote: |
| Thats really stupid. So if I break some law in Spain or France or wherever, then I am subject to the laws in those countries despite not breaking the laws while in that country? Anyone with any common sense knows this is a ridiculous claim to make. |
That's really ignorant - of the law, not to mention naive. So Spanish prosecutors at the highest levels are just bumbling stupid idiots with no common sense? Notice that the Spanish Attorney General who intervened did so not because those indicted were not on Spanish soil, but because in his opinion the complaint should focus on those who did the actual torture (who also happened to NOT be on Spanish soil).
Sometimes laws apply to behavior abroad. In Nazi Germany, it was a crime to criticize the homeland from abroad. In modern day America, it is a crime to have sex with a minor abroad EVEN IF legal there. The principle is known in the law as "extraterritoriality." Look it up.
| Quote: |
| 2nd of all why the hell would Obama do it? Doing this means that the US is putting itself under the jurisdiction of other nations' laws. A severely retarded thing to do or to expect to be done. The US will never do it, and while I would like to see Bush in prison, it should be the US not some other country prosecuting him. |
Obama's Attorney General would have to follow our own law and obey the treaty by signing off on the extradition IF Spain has fulfilled all the requirements under the treaty.
Yes, treaties subjugate a nation's own laws to that of the international treaty. Sometimes a nation must and will even modify its own law in order to comply with a treaty.
Anyway, hopefully all this will be impetus to get Bush indicted in the US where I agree it belongs. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards? |
Most bilateral extradition treaties require the crime to be an offense in both countries to be extraditable. If there is a crime with the same elements in the requested country, it is obligated under the treaty to extradite. They do not do a review of the evidence but assume the legal authorities in the requesting party had enough evidence to indict.
So if Russia or China requested an extradition (both countries known for convicting many people with little or trumped up evidence) are you telling me that America or Canada would just hand over one of their citizens on their say-so?
Also the person being extradited CAN appeal.
| Quote: |
| And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. |
I must admit I am shocked to learn this. But your fetish for George W. Bush??? That's perverse! |
It's more a fetish for due process and the rule of law.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:44 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Spain has no authority over American citizens. And extradition does not rest with Spain or Spanish judges. It rests with America. If America tells Spain (diplomatically) to "fly a kite", there is nothing Spain can do. And you can bet the Bush six have the money and connections to hire very good lawyers. |
Oh, really? OK then, go to Spain and break the law and see if they don't have jurisdiction over you, an American citizen.
If these Americans have broken Spanish law, which they may well have, the US and Spain are legally required to honor their extradition treaty, if applicable in this case.
Ask Kuros. |
Two things. First of all Spain has no authority over those American citizens as they are not in Spain.
And secondly I am not an American citizen, nor have I ever been. But say I do something that is illegal in Spain but not in my home country. Is my home country required to hand me over if they have an extradition treaty? Or if the evidence presented is too low to meet their standards?
Here's a question for you. Why do you think AMERICAN prosecutors aren't going after these people? |
Obama administration doesn't have the political will to do it. |
So you are telling us, that cases only get prosecuted if the ruling party of the time wishes? So you can do all sorts of illegal things and as long as the administration doesn't have the political will to go after you, you won't get in trouble? |
If you're the CIA or high ranking government official? Yes.
Officials have already acknowledged that toruture has taken place. There is no political will to prosecute those who may be responsible. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I think some of you are missing the point that the Spanish Judge was doing this because some of the so callled terrorists being tortured in Gitmo were Spanish citizens. I doubt that the judge really expects anything to come of it other than some diplomatic feather-ruffling. |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Bush 6 Indicted, Get a Reprieve |
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| bacasper wrote: |
That's really ignorant - of the law, not to mention naive. So Spanish prosecutors at the highest levels are just bumbling stupid idiots with no common sense? Notice that the Spanish Attorney General who intervened did so not because those indicted were not on Spanish soil, but because in his opinion the complaint should focus on those who did the actual torture (who also happened to NOT be on Spanish soil). |
The Spanish are trying to score politically. Are they fools? More like Don Quixote, really.
| Quote: |
| Sometimes laws apply to behavior abroad. In Nazi Germany, it was a crime to criticize the homeland from abroad. In modern day America, it is a crime to have sex with a minor abroad EVEN IF legal there. The principle is known in the law as "extraterritoriality." Look it up. |
Gee, do you really not see the FUNDAMENTAL difference here? I mean the very basic, fundamental difference. Aside from the lunacy of comparing what Bush did with pedophiles on sex vacations in Thailand. I mean something so fundamentally different. Im really debating with myself if I should let you in on it or wait to see if you are bright enough to pick up on it yourself.
Just think about it. In both the examples you gave, the perp would be extradited back to HIS country. It would either be a German going back to Germany or an American going back to America. YOU are proposing that a nation send its own citizens to a country that has no jurisdiction over the person they wish to convict. Would you assume to tell us that it woud be just dandy for, let's say North Korea to demand that the US extradite an American citizen who criticized KJI, despite the said person never having been in North Korea? Or a less extreme example, should Canada now demand the extradition of Americans who are not Canadians, never have been in Canada and may never go there for breaking Canadian gun laws? |
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