|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Hahaha! And now you absolutely hate me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Hahaha! And now you absolutely hate me. |
No, I'm not some sensitive little flower.
Plus I've learned that Brits can't help themselves. Something in the water, I guess. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Catman wrote: |
| Chinese nationalists pretty much agree with this sentiment. |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| When I lived in China I heard this exact opinion voiced regularly by friends and colleagues. |
Read A. Gramsci on hegemony. You will recognize hegemonic thinking on this or that because it appears in the form of unchallenged "common sense."
Does not necessarily make it correct... |
I'm following up on my previous post. Here Comte writes glowingly about the unity or common sense of a people, which I take to be the exact same thing that Gramsci the dirty revolutionary prisoner decries as 'ideological hegemony' or even 'false consciousness'.
[quote=Comte]No readers of these lectures should I ever think it necessary to prove that ideas govern and upset the world, or, in other terms, that the whole social mechanism rests, at bottom, on opinions. They are acutely aware that the great political and moral crisis in present-day society is due, in the last analysis, to our intellectual anarchy. Our most serious distress is caused by the profound differences of opinion that at present exist among all minds as to all those fundamental maxims the stability of which is the prime requisite for a real social order. So long as individual minds fail to give unanimous assent to a certain number of general ideas capable of constituting a common social doctrine, we cannot blind ourselves to the fact that the nations will necessarily remain in an essentially revolutionary atmosphere � It is just as certain that if this gathering of minds to one communion of principles can once be attained, the appropriate institutions will necessarily take shape from it. [/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Jackie Chan endorses China's authoritarianism |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Jackie Chan makes controversial comments
| Jackie Chan wrote: |
| I'm not sure if it's good to have freedom or not. I'm gradually beginning to feel that we Chinese need to be controlled. If we're not being controlled, we'll just do what we want. |
I've never thought highly of Jackie Chan. Now I absolutely hate him. I'd boycott his movies, but that would imply that I've ever paid to see one. |
Why be so mad? It's his country, and he has a right to his opinion. When I lived in China I heard this exact opinion voiced regularly by friends and colleagues. |
I find it ironic that you defend his right to his opinion to express his opinion that there ought be limits on what opinions he might be able to express.
Just shows that the phrase, 'he has a right to his opinion' has become a kind of truistic platitude. |
It's a bit like Voltaire saying "I may agree with what you have to say, but I absolutely refuse to defend your right to say it." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I dont think Hitler has gained popularity in China yet. Chinese people admire strong leaders is true, though.
Being a celebrity in China does mean more than doing your own job... Politics is always the first consideration.
I am afraid Bjork would never have chance to host a concert in China since last year she burst out " free Tibet" in the end of her singing in Shanghai.
The same thing happened to Sharon Stone, some Taiwanese singers and Tang Wei, the actress who starred in < lust, caution>
Celebrities in China have to learn how to appeal to the audience and the authority in order not to lose their popularity.
Also, Jackie Chen has long been regarded as an icon of patriotism, if you were on his position, with 1.5 billion pairs of eyes looking at you, you would say the same thing, if not more thrilling...
Last edited by Panda on Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:25 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think what bothers me about his statement is that it undercuts my belief that it's natural to want to have freedom and control of your life. I have a tendency to forget there are people who want to be told what to think and how to act.
History has far more examples of societies where the powerful few control everything and one of the main arguments made in defense of it is that the mass of people are not responsible enough to be free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I think what bothers me about his statement is that it undercuts my belief that it's natural to want to have freedom and control of your life. I have a tendency to forget there are people who want to be told what to think and how to act.
History has far more examples of societies where the powerful few control everything and one of the main arguments made in defense of it is that the mass of people are not responsible enough to be free. |
I pretty much agree with you.
The vast majority is actually pretty weak and gullible. The US prolly is one of the most heavily controlled countries, however, the government kept telling people, you all are born to be free... Jackie Chen shouldnt have disillusioned what people were dreaming of, though
There is no absolute freedom, there is only absolute control... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Good heavens, Panda. Get out and meet people! Plenty of female students of mine were smitten with Hitler - they thought he was bloody handsome and a great leader. And quite a few Chinese people I met socially (independent of each other, and unprompted by me) professed a great admiration for the fellow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Good heavens, Panda. Get out and meet people! Plenty of female students of mine were smitten with Hitler - they thought he was bloody handsome and a great leader. And quite a few Chinese people I met socially (independent of each other, and unprompted by me) professed a great admiration for the fellow. |
Well, not much different from you lovin' Chavez or Stalin, eh birdy? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 3MB wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Good heavens, Panda. Get out and meet people! Plenty of female students of mine were smitten with Hitler - they thought he was bloody handsome and a great leader. And quite a few Chinese people I met socially (independent of each other, and unprompted by me) professed a great admiration for the fellow. |
Well, not much different from you lovin' Chavez or Stalin, eh birdy? |
Hello Jinju. Run out of Japanese pornos? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kuros:
Although I used to like Chan, I'm now inclined to agree with you. He's become a media *beep* and a sycophant of the boys in Zhongnanhai in an effort to keep in their good graces.
It's easy to say that the Chinese need strong control when you (re: Chan) don't have to be subjected to it. Just another expat Hollywood type who's out of touch with what he assumes are his "own people."
Big Bird squawked:
| Quote: |
| Why be so mad? It's his country, and he has a right to his opinion. When lived in China I heard this exact opinion voiced regularly by friends and colleagues. |
My, you've been everywhere and have friends in high places everywhere, too. Well, Anecdotal Annie, I've lived on and off in China for 15 years (more on than off), am married to a Beijinger, and in fact do have friends in high places (the Ministry of Education) and I've never heard them say this prompted or not. But I will concede that there are many Chinese who believe in a strong state. For an excellent overview, I suggest W. Jenner, The Tyranny of History. He was a British historian and sinologist.
That said, most Hong Kongers and a slim majority of Taiwanese think much differently and it is they who are most offended by Chan's comments.
And, no, BB, he is not a citizen of mainland China. While he has roots in Hong Kong, he grew up in Australia and is at best an overseas Chinese. So it would be like you bad-mouthing British people as a Kiwi and claiming legitimacy in your views on the grounds of ethnicity. It doesn't hold water.
But I won't hold my breath waiting for you to reply on point.
Gopher, your reminder about Gramsci is right on the mark. It is precisely what BB is doing although she's oblivious to it. The Left likes to believe hegemony emanates only from the Right.
Last edited by ManintheMiddle on Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Panda wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I think what bothers me about his statement is that it undercuts my belief that it's natural to want to have freedom and control of your life. I have a tendency to forget there are people who want to be told what to think and how to act.
History has far more examples of societies where the powerful few control everything and one of the main arguments made in defense of it is that the mass of people are not responsible enough to be free. |
I pretty much agree with you.
The vast majority is actually pretty weak and gullible. The US prolly is one of the most heavily controlled countries, however, the government kept telling people, you all are born to be free... Jackie Chen shouldnt have disillusioned what people were dreaming of, though
There is no absolute freedom, there is only absolute control... |
What?
U.S. citizens living within the U.S. have substantive freedoms the Chinese simply do not have. Procedural Due Process alone puts the U.S. in a much higher tier of freedom.
If you want to make a deeper, philosophical point about men shackling themselves (i.e. Rousseau), maybe that's true. But none of the Chinese lawyers I met would dare agree with your statement. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Good heavens, Panda. Get out and meet people! Plenty of female students of mine were smitten with Hitler - they thought he was bloody handsome and a great leader. And quite a few Chinese people I met socially (independent of each other, and unprompted by me) professed a great admiration for the fellow. |
Yes, China has such a big population, even just a small proportion of it would be plenty of. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
What?
U.S. citizens living within the U.S. have substantive freedoms the Chinese simply do not have. Procedural Due Process alone puts the U.S. in a much higher tier of freedom.
If you want to make a deeper, philosophical point about men shackling themselves (i.e. Rousseau), maybe that's true. But none of the Chinese lawyers I met would dare agree with your statement. |
Define me freedom, please.
When you have to spend thousands of millions of $ to complete a procedural due process, it is not freedom, it is money talks. Yeah, there are cases that the poor won the rich, the black won the white. But that soon became propaganda as Jackie Chan singing high praise of Chinese regime. How many of you who lived in both countries can actually tell freedom is a lot better in your own country than China.
Chinese people enjoy free download, if you say that is not freedom but illegal sneaky behavior. Then I have to say all freedoms are defined by those who want to enjoy their own privilege. In order not to let their rights be taken away by others, they make laws to legitimize their freedom.
However in my selfish eyes, all music in the world should be free. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
Kuros:
Although I used to like Chan, I'm now inclined to agree with you. He's become a media *beep* and a sycophant of the boys in Zhongnanhai in an effort to keep in their good graces.
It's easy to say that the Chinese need strong control when you (re: Chan) don't have to be subjected to it. Just another expat Hollywood type who's out of touch with what he assumes are his "own people."
|
Who isnt a media *beep*. Do you think those politicians really like to hug babies who might prolly throw up or pee on them? All celebrities act and sell themselves.
Also, people only take out a part from Chan's whole comment, he actually was comparing the cultural freedom among mainland China and HongKong and Taiwan, is it wrong peopel think nowadays the media should be controlled? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
