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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| 'Liberals' would argue circumstance and environment were major forces in the person's decision making. |
This is true. A combination of poverty and lack of law enforcement make piracy a compelling choice to these people.
| RufusW wrote: |
| And if a person is so poor they decide risking their lives is a rational gamble can we really blame them? |
It's not about the fact that they risked their own lives, really, it's that they risk the lives of others. Trying to take ships by force, taking hostages at gun point, these actions don't just put your own life at risk, they put the lives of your targets at risk as well.
I have a hard time sympathizing with anyone who decides it's all right to risk the lives of others -- against the will of those other people -- in order to make money, regardless of their situation. I can empathize with them; their situation in life is very bad, and extreme actions are considered as a result.
None the less, I cannot count myself sympathetic to their cause. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Not if he's taking people hostage at gun point, no. I would prefer that he had had a better lot in life, but I would prefer the same for all these people, regardless of age. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Not if he's taking people hostage at gun point, no. I would prefer that he had had a better lot in life, but I would prefer the same for all these people, regardless of age. |
I may be reading this wrong, but it seems the US has acted illegally by arresting and holding the 16 yr old boy.
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| "The Law of the Sea Convention gives foreign warships the right to prevent, deter and respond to acts of piracy, but does not apply to territorial waters and does not properly address the issue of transfer ashore." |
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/somali-pirates-release-one-more-ship-20090420-abm2.html
In other words, no foreign ship should be trawling, sailing, or conducting security operations within Somali waters. if they do, then they deserve to get hijacked. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| In other words, no foreign ship should be trawling, sailing, or conducting security operations within Somali waters. if they do, then they deserve to get hijacked. |
No.
International law can be a justification for the Somali Government to act, but not individuals. If the Somali Government were using its navy to block trade vessels from passing through its waters, it would be annoying, but within that government's rights.
Non-government comissioned individuals, however, have no right to hijack vessels, attack vessels, take hostages, or anything else. Regardless of the abstract legality of the United States Military abducting a boy who was holding our citizenry at gun point, saying vessels deserve to be hijacked and their crew deserves to be held hostage (the latter of which is entailed in the former) by private pirates for sailing through Somali waters is wrong.
Regarding your point about illegality, if the Somali Government feels its waters have been violated, it can complain through appropriate diplomatic channels. Until or unless that happens, you have no basis for complaint.
I know you really, really, really want these pirates to be in the right through whatever justification you can find, but they just aren't. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Julius wished:
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| I may be reading this wrong |
You are, as Fox duly noted. And Somalia is a failed state; waiting for their "government" to act would be naive and deadly.
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| In other words, no foreign ship should be trawling, sailing, or conducting security operations within Somali waters. if they do, then they deserve to get hijacked. |
So we can't defend our people? Sorry, but regardless of what international convention dictates, it is the first duty of the American government to protect its citizens abroad. Period. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Another article on recent piracy.
I particularly want to draw attention to this, for the benefit of those defending these pirates:
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Somali pirates in speedboats opened fire Monday on two cargo ships in the latest hijacking attempts in the notorious Gulf of Aden. Another band of brigands freed a food aid freighter but only after receiving a $100,000 "reward" from Somali businessmen. The latest attack occurred at midday when pirates fired shots at a Chinese-owned, Panama-flagged cargo ship, the MV New Legend Honor, said Cmdr. Chris Davies, from NATO's maritime headquarters in England.
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That sounds to me like they are literally profitting at the expense of their own people. Seizing ships carrying food aid to their own country, then only releasing them when paid?
Truly, the "Volunteer Coast Guard of Somalia" is noble. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| if the Somali Government feels its waters have been violated, it can complain through appropriate diplomatic channels. |
Somalis have been complaining through "official channels" for years. ..
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In September 1995, leaders of all the Somali political factions of the day (12 of them) and two major Somali NGO Networks jointly wrote to the UN Secretary General, Dr Boutros Boutros Ghali, with copies to the EU, Arab League, OIC, OAU and to other involved parties, detailing the illegal fishing and hazardous material dumping crises in the Somali sea waters and requesting the UN to set up a body to manage and protect these waterways. �
Somali fishermen in various regions of the country also complained to the international community about the illegal foreign fishing, stealing the livelihoods of poor fishermen, waste dumping and other ecological disasters, including the indiscriminate use of all prohibited methods of fishing: drift nets, under water explosives, killing all �endangered species� like sea-turtles, orca, sharks, baby whales, etc. as well as destroying reef, biomass and vital fish habitats in the sea. |
But they were ignored. Instead, the UN has tacitly condoned an invasion force of foreign trawlers to freely exploit Somali waters. By various UN resolutions, the area has become a free-for all. In 2005 there were an estimated 800 unlicensed foreign fishing vessels in Somali waters at any one time.
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Surprisingly, the UN disregarded its own findings of the violations, ignored the Somali and international appeals to act on the continued ravaging of the Somali marine resources and dumping of hazardous wastes. Instead, the UN and the big powers, invoking Charter IIV of the UN Charter, decided to �enter the territorial waters of Somalia��and ..�use, within the territorial waters of Somalia �.all necessary means to identify, deter, prevent, and repress acts of piracy and armed robbery, including but not limited to boarding, searching, and seizing vessels engaged in or suspected of engaging in acts of piracy or armed robbery, and to apprehend persons engaged in such acts with a view to such persons being prosecuted� (Resolution 1816).
It should be noted that there is no mention of the illegal fishing piracy, hazardous waste dumping or the plight of the Somali fishermen in the UN Resolutions. |
http://www.africanexecutive.com/modules/magazine/articles.php?article=4070
So when official channels failed, should Somalis simply have accepted it and kept quiet? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
| it is the first duty of the American government to protect its citizens abroad. Period. |
Even if they have intentionally, knowingly and illegally, trespassed into another nations territory? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I particularly want to draw attention to this, for the benefit of those defending these pirates:
Another band of brigands freed a food aid freighter but only after receiving a $100,000 "reward" from Somali businessmen.. |
Agreed, some of the pirates are motivated only by greed, but certainly not all.
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Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.
The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said. |
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html
The piracy is simply an extreme example of what happens when legitimate complaints are continuously ignored. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I particularly want to draw attention to this, for the benefit of those defending these pirates:
Another band of brigands freed a food aid freighter but only after receiving a $100,000 "reward" from Somali businessmen.. |
Agreed, some of the pirates are motivated only by greed, but certainly not all.
| Quote: |
Somali pirates have accused European firms of dumping toxic waste off the Somali coast and are demanding an $8m ransom for the return of a Ukranian ship they captured, saying the money will go towards cleaning up the waste.
The ransom demand is a means of "reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years", Januna Ali Jama, a spokesman for the pirates, based in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland, said. |
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/10/2008109174223218644.html
The piracy is simply an extreme example of what happens when legitimate complaints are continuously ignored. |
Come on, do you really believe that they are going to use that money to clean up the waste?
Oh BTW I hear there's a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...if you hurry you can make it.  |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Come on, do you really believe that they are going to use that money to clean up the waste? |
Even if they don't fund a waste cleanup with their spoils, they are still in the right.
The money gathered by Pirates goes some way to compensating impoverished Somali coastal communities. It is injected into their economies, gradually shared out.
This why 70% of Somalis support the piracy as a legitimate means of national defence.
If the UN/International community clamped down hard on all the foreign trawlers and waste dumpers exploiting Somalia, then the piracy problem would end. The somalis would be able to catch fish again to make a living.
You ain't going to get control of the situation by military means. Theres 3000+ km of coastline to patrol. Even with half the national navies of the world plying those waters, arresting suspected pirates is still like finding a needle in a haystack.
This is one time brute force and propoganda isn't going to cut it. The west needs to stop their hypocrisy and do the right thing. Problem is the gung-ho Americans just inflamed the whole situation by killing 3 pirates (who were already apprehended and defenseless).
Up til then, the piracy had been peaceful and hostages treated well. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
[This is one time brute force and propoganda isn't going to cut it. The west needs to stop their hypocrisy and do the right thing. Problem is the gung-ho Americans just inflamed the whole situation by killing 3 pirates (who were already apprehended and defenseless).
Up til then, the piracy had been peaceful and hostages treated well. |
[bolding mine]
Do us all a favour and please restrain yourself from posting rubbish like the bolded part above, until you've done some research.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6719091.stm |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Got quiet in here all of a sudden... |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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You are being lied to about pirates
Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling
Monday, 5 January 2009
Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy � backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China � is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labelling as "one of the great menaces of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell � and some justice on their side.
Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the "golden age of piracy" � from 1650 to 1730 � the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage Bluebeard that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often saved from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can't? In his book Villains Of All Nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence.
If you became a merchant or navy sailor then � plucked from the docks of London's East End, young and hungry � you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked often, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages.
Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied � and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively, without torture. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls "one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the eighteenth century".
They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed "quite clearly � and subversively � that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal Navy." This is why they were romantic heroes, despite being unproductive thieves.
The words of one pirate from that lost age, a young British man called William Scott, should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: "What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirateing to live." In 1991, the government of Somalia collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since � and the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury � you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Mr Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."
more at link |
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