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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: |
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" Is it ok to torture terrorist suspects when American people's lives are in a clear and present danger from a large scale terrorist attack?"
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I would answer "yes" to that. But this isn't the situation the Bush clan got America in to. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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" Is it ok to torture terrorist suspects when American people's lives are in a clear and present danger from a large scale terrorist attack?"
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I would answer "yes" to that. But this isn't the situation the Bush clan got America in to. |
Why? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: |
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The torture was largely 'fun with muslims' and was concealed. Some journalists reported it but were quickly tarred with the "hard left" label. Only now are Americans really finding out about it, and they're almost uniformly opposed.
Anyways, last weeks New Yorker podcast had a great discussion about this:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/2009/04/27/090427on_audio_politicalscene |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
" Is it ok to torture terrorist suspects when American people's lives are in a clear and present danger from a large scale terrorist attack?"
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I would answer "yes" to that. But this isn't the situation the Bush clan got America in to. |
Why? |
Probably because the clear and present danger test can come out differently depending on who applies it.
Mises should know that the Bush Administration was convinced, through a CIA agent named Dragonfire, that Al Qaeda was preparing to deploy a nuclear weapon in an American city.
At any rate, JMO, I would say America should have a no torture policy. No exceptions. In the case where Jack Bauer feels he absolutely must torture the terrorists, he is arrested, prosecuted, and allowed to make his case before a court of law. There must be clear boundaries. There are legal theories recognizing exceptions, and I'm more afraid the judicial system will be too lenient than too exacting in their enforcement.
The ticking time bomb defense of torture is a complete canard. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Mises should know that the Bush Administration was convinced, through a CIA agent named Dragonfire, that Al Qaeda was preparing to deploy a nuclear weapon in an American city.
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So then you drag Iraqi men around like dogs and pile them up, naked, like lego? The water boarding is only one small a big shit pie. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
Mises should know that the Bush Administration was convinced, through a CIA agent named Dragonfire, that Al Qaeda was preparing to deploy a nuclear weapon in an American city.
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So then you drag Iraqi men around like dogs and pile them up, naked, like lego? The water boarding is only one small a big shit pie. |
No. I've been complaining about US torture on this board long before you adopted the mises moniker. I was responding to this:
| mises wrote: |
Quote:
" Is it ok to torture terrorist suspects when American people's lives are in a clear and present danger from a large scale terrorist attack?"
I would answer "yes" to that. But this isn't the situation the Bush clan got America in to. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| I know you're opposed. Never said you are or were not. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
The ticking time bomb defense of torture is a complete canard. |
Well the central premise of it is flawed. Torture hasn't been proven to work.
That is what I was inadequately trying to illustrate with the A and the B. Before you even get to the morality of the situation, the practicality is in question.
Not to put too much stock in it, but the Hollywood notion of knocking the bad guy about a bit to get info, has to have something to do with the common belief in torture as a last resort. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Oh no. He won't believe it unless he is holding the severed head of his son in his hands and you are about to do the deed with his daughter.
And it would have to be high? Interesting...so what is the math? How many americans would need to be on the line for you to murder and rape kids?
I love the fact that somewhere in that skull of yours you think torture is effective in saving American lives. Admit it, you are fond of the odd 24 marathon? |
Hey...tool box...again, I will leave the rape issue with you.
You don't have to agree with me and I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind. But, really......stop being an asshole.
dmbfan |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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Oh no. He won't believe it unless he is holding the severed head of his son in his hands and you are about to do the deed with his daughter.
And it would have to be high? Interesting...so what is the math? How many americans would need to be on the line for you to murder and rape kids?
I love the fact that somewhere in that skull of yours you think torture is effective in saving American lives. Admit it, you are fond of the odd 24 marathon? |
Hey...tool box...again, I will leave the rape issue with you.
You don't have to agree with me and I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind. But, really......stop being an asshole.
dmbfan |
Ah ha , so whatever it takes has its limits..interesting. Although I suspect you'd be quite happy for other people to do the dirty work as long as you didn;t know the details. Freedom isn't free after all. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ....as far as needed. |
No, tool box. Above is what I said............not "whatever it takes".
dmbfan |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| ....as far as needed. |
No, tool box. Above is what I said............not "whatever it takes".
dmbfan |
Could you explain how "as far as needed" has a different practical meaning to "whatever it takes"? |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Could you explain how "as far as needed" has a different meaning to "whatever it takes"? |
No, you seem good at coming up with various amounts of bullshit.
So, I'll let you handle it.
dmbfan |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
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| Could you explain how "as far as needed" has a different meaning to "whatever it takes"? |
No, you seem good at coming up with various amounts of bullshit.
So, I'll let you handle it.
dmbfan |
In other words you can't.
Don't get tetchy. Go look in a mirror, realise what you are advocating. Then go online and look for some evidence of the effectiveness of the techniques you are advocating. Then come back and say you are sorry. I'll graciously accept that apology.
Here's a good read to start...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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No, in other words.....I'm not out ot change your mind. I don't care what links you throw because they won't change mine.
So, once again.......you can have the "raping kids" part because that is something you used to tag on me in order marginalize the issue and any opposition people have against what you think.
dmbfan |
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