Korean Job Discussion Forums

[bobbybigfoot]

I just want to pass along my observations. I work in a hagwan for elementary kids, and I frequently ask the kids about their English studies at public school. This is the consensus:

* English is a joke. The kids belittle it. Even my dumbest classes say it is too easy. Apparently you guys are teaching something ridiculous like "I Like Spring" now.

* Most public school teachers are liked by my kids. Maybe 15% are not liked.

* The two reasons given for liking the English teacher: "s/he is fun and kind."

* The reason given for not liking the English teacher: "s/he ignores me."

* Most public school teachers play games in class.

Any other observations out there?

[Kikomom]

Ask them how do their hagwon studies help them with their PS English classes. Do they have a better understanding of the material presented due to being in a hagwon class?

[sinsanri]

The only thing I can say here is get a job in a public high school yourself and see the difficulties NETs have.

[Joe666]

This is great thread! - I am in the public school system myself. My feeling is as follows:

The kids get bombarded with English and other subjects almost everyday for a long period of time.

Most of the kids in my classes also want to play games. I have to cover some material per chapter and I also cater to what the kids want as much as possible. I believe that in the end, it's the kids liking you, that really matters. That's exactly what the principal of my school stated when I first met him on the first day of classes. His quote " I hope the children like you". Remember style over substance.

Also, I believe that even playing games does atleast some good. It's not "hard core learning", but by the process of exposure, it has to be constructive to some degree. I equate it to this: We as foriegn teachers are in Korea. Most of us probably don't speak the language very fluently, if at all. But, we have an understanding of the country that someone who has never been here will never have! Osmotic if you will!

Plus, I see the kids getting punished on a daily basis. Kneeling in the halls with there hands in the air for 15 minutes etc. I have seen things you would never see in the U.S. I like to give them a break by playing games and making it fun for them once in a while. When playing games, I try to make it more difficult than what I believe there current English level is. I always try to make them think. If they are really thinking in English and trying to answer in English, what more could you really ask for?

Yes, some students don't care, some really do! I already know who the students that care are! It's damn frustrating at times. You have to hold back on that frustration at all costs!

bobbybigfoot - I believe you are correct in that the level of English is too easy for some students and difficult for others in any one class. The levels vary greatly per class. There is nothing we as NET's can really do about it. It's Korea's system. I personally cherish the students who are above the others. They are the ones answering all the questions I pose during class!

I do not have an educational degree but I am of the opinion that any human being of any age is more likely to learn a greater amount of X if he/she/it (in the case of some Korean males) is enjoying the process. Forcing people to learn probably works fine, but when having fun in the process, I believe they are taking in more info. than they realize! I am interested to know what other "waygookin" think about this? Am I totally delusional on this one?

In my classes, I try to have fun, joke around a bit. But at the same time, be firm. Don't let the rodents jump all over you. I made the mistake of kicking a male student out of one of my after school classes 2 weeks ago. I am solo in my after school classes. He showed up 30 minutes late for a 45 minute class. WTF! He was shocked that I actually said it. I was later told that I could not do that! The students have a right to be in the class no matter what! So I was told I could make them stand in the back of the class, if I so choose. I do not agree with this! Let's make a spectacle of a student(s)! If I am pissed off enough at a student(s), I do not want to look at them for the rest of the class! Period! I do not want to yell at them! Now I have to come up with a way to pseudo-discipline them without booting them or making a spectacle of them!!

I am assuming that most NET's in K-land are not responsible for grading etc. If that is the case, that allows us more freedom to be "loose" in the classroom. If a teacher is responsible for grading, they have to eliminate the buddy-buddy relationship with students. I am assuming the main goal for all NET's is conversational English. I believe the best way to encourage K-students to want to speak English is to make them as comfortable as possible ie the buddy-buddy relationships. Who knows, I may be way off on this one also!!

I'm tired of typing, I'm done!! It felt pretty good though! Thanks Sasquatch, I feel much better now!

[Kurtz]

The problem in a public school is there is a large difference in ability.

I often give the opportunity to let the weaker students speak, as I know they need more practice. I know which students attend a hagwon so I often don't pick them if their hand is raised as they are in a privileged position to speak in the hagwon. I see them getting a little angry so maybe they form that 15%.

Maybe OP you should spend a little time in a PS in a poor area like mine. I consider myself an above average teacher, I do a good job I think, I prepare materials, re-hearse the class, put in energy but some students when asked the question "do you like spring?", after learning about it for two weeks, is met with stunned silence. Reason being either

a) I suck at teaching, or
b) English is very difficult, and hagwon teachers have no idea what your below average student is like.

You can't generalize and say it's too easy for students as you are teaching hagwon students. Come and teach to kids who only have one or two classes in English with up to 32 others in the class too.

Here's one for the hagwon teachers when asked about you guys to students,

"I don't like him, he's fat"
"I don't like him, bad smell"
"I like her, small face"

Maybe time to hit the treadmill and break out the deodorant guys

[yeremy]

1. If English is a joke class to the kids, it is because they usually don't get a grade for it. However, more and more public elementary schools are beginning to give grades for English.

1a. More and more Korean public school English teachers believe that up to 25% of all Korean students have some kind of attention deficit syndrome, thus students are not able pay attention consistently in class. This is just what I heard from a former high school co-teacher. I do not have the link for it. Just a thought.

1b. It is true that many Korean teachers and parents feel that their kids are entitled to remain in an English class, even if they are negatively disrupting it. I agree that they have a right (not an entitlement) to an education. I disagree they have the right or entitlement to disrupt a class for their own amusement.

2. The policy is to teach to the median level so all students have a chance to participate. I often have this conversation with one of my Ko-teachers, who always tells me that something is too difficult for some or too many of our students.

3. I like to be liked by my students, but I like teaching English as a Foreign Language better. I don't give candy out unless it's their birthday and they tell me in English and especially, unless I have some candy on my person, which is usually unlikely except for the throat candies.

4. Sometimes, I find that the hagwon teachers are teaching inappropriate things like certain blue language or slang when they should not.

5. Some hagwon teachers, I have heard of in the area where I taught at the local elementary school, just like the public school wonamin English teacher, like to be the English authority.

6. Most hagwons, including the one I taught at for two years before I escaped to the public school system, have far smaller classes than your typical public school class. 10 to even 15 students are much easier to teach than 30 to 40. Count your blessings on that one. That is the only thing I envy about hagwons-smaller class sizes.

7. I have a different and somewhat unique situation this year. I teach eleven sixth grade classes with the homeroom teachers in one of my schools. I have been given the green light to do whatever I want. I do.

8. There are more backpackers in both the hagwon and public school elementary system today than ever before, but that is just my opinion.

9. I gave a dictation quiz the other day and the kids were talking smack about how easy (in Korean) it was until I asked them to write down the word, autumn, which was not in the official vocabulary but is a reasonable synonym to expect them to know.

10. The really good elementary schools are splitting their students up into two levels for 20 plus minutes each class to address the mixed levels issues in most ps elementary school classes.

11. I echo the poster, who said, "Try working in a high school." I did that last year and I transferred back to the elementary level. I wanted better students, who would interact and talk than my sleepy high school students, whom I grudgingly allowed to sleep standing up - if they could.

12. Most public elementary school Korean English teachers are not English Education majors. Usually, they've been drafted, told to teach English, or they've signed up for extra points they can use for promotion or to favorably change schools (carrot).

13. In the rural city I live in, many of the parents repeatedly send their kids to local hagwons even though they do not often learn as much from it as you (and the hagwons) think they do.

14. Many parents view hagwons as being the same thus interchangeable and they will change their kids hagwons if their kids want to go elsewhere.

15. Many Korean hagwons give out way too much homework for their students to do, with very impressive grammar and vocabulary notebooks.

16. A hardworking, caring and thoughtful foreign English teacher, whether at a hagwon or at a public school, is vastly preferable, even if they were not an Ed major, to someone who is just going through the motions to get a paycheck.

17. Much of what is taught in a Korean English young learners class is not as new and unique as people think. The be verb is often taught in the same way again and again at different places.

18. Sometimes one of the biggest constraints on a well-meaning ps elementary school teacher is their Korean co-teacher, who feels pressured to follow the national curriculum exactly instead of supplementing liberally to make it better, or better yet, changing it entirely at times.

19. I like Jin-ho and Nami but I don't like the negative racial stereotypes (Peter, who has over-sized lips) in the national curriculum. We were playing a game called "Banana" in one of my classes where the students have to ask funny or strange questions to get the other student to break up and laugh. One of my students said, "Do you want to kiss Obama?" The students laughed.

20. Games are disrespected but when presented and inserted into a class properly they can be a great aid because they can lower affective barriers (shyness or the perfection complex), encourage experimentation with language, promote teamwork, teach cooperation and they're, here's that other f-word, uh, fun.

[Dodgy Al]

I think the real reason you posted this was to justify to yourself why you are working in a hogwan. You're in a bubble, teaching probably the top 5% of a public school class demographic.

Congratulations on devaluing the work of your fellow teachers though.

[VanIslander]

I have taught in hagwons since 2002 and appreciate class sizes of 6 to 12 students twice or thrice a week: real learning gets done.

** This very week I taught my first ever public school classes (tues,wed,thurs 820am-900am) because my hagwon rented me out to teach one class a day to a local elementary school and I have to say...

Teaching 34 to 45 students once a week is a real challenge If I hadn't taken the CELTA, I dunno if I could have handled such a large class, as one needs to be able to create a well-structured lesson with group work in order to keep the majority participating in the learning process.

I totally understand how inexperienced and untrained ESL teachers might resort to playing games or trying to dazzle them with clownish attention-grabbing, teacher-centered presentations - not much English might be learned, but being "fun and kind" can help at least remove apprehensions and pave the way for future real learning on their part through self-study, tutoring, or hagwons. It's a process, and they are helping in their own ways.

[cruisemonkey]

Mr. bigfoot(in mouth),

Some of what you say is true. However, one can't compare hogwan apples to PS oranges. Every PS teacher knows and will admit (or they should) that the 'best' students attend hogwans/acadamies.

Try teaching classes of 38, fifteen-year-olds, 90% of whom will never use English and know they will never use English in a 'real life' situation.

I have PS students who attend the best hogwans and who's English is better than my co-teachers'. Some of those students are spoiled little brats... and not good students. I have other boys whose parents don't have the money to send them to be educated by the likes of you, but they're the best students in the world.

The vast majority lie somewhere in the middle. Just an observation.

P.S. Excellent 'troll'... I sense you are playing games with us. Have you ever considered coming over to the �dark side� and becoming a PS teacher?

[Goku]

<---------------------------

[losing_touch]

A recent conversation with a student at my hagwon went something like this:

T: Hi Hyun Ji. How are you today?
S: Bad teacher, I'm very bad.
T: Oh no! Why? Is everything ok?
S: Today English class at school. I hate English class.
T: Really? You don't hate it here.
S: English class school stupid.
T: Why?
S: Uh-Uh .... (pause) .... moolayo

It kind of left me scratching my head. I have talked with my students about their tests. They always claim they are very, very easy. They mostly like their teacher across the street at the elementary school, but they complain that she is very ugly! I haven't met her, so I don't know for sure. They are definitely caught up about the way she looks.

I have asked all of my students what their favorite subject is. For at least two-thirds of them, it is English. They really like learning the language. Most of them simply hate it at this particular elementary school. In addition, there is a very big difference for the few students that attend classes at different schools. They tend to like their English classes, and I have observed that their command of the language is superior.

Admittedly, I have no experience with the public school system here. I can say that I really like watching my students advance. In the last 7 months, I have seen many students develop so quickly. I see each of them for 40 minutes 5 times per week. Yes, learning does happen. Of course, there are some students who will never learn anything.....

[Yu_Bum_suk]

Interesting thread. I know many of my students' hagwon teachers, and whenever I've heard anything negative it's usually about failing to notice a student (like I have time to say hello to all twenty screaming kids when I walk into school with lots on my mind). Apparently I have a reputation for being 'best teacher' but also sometimes being very difficult and loving grammar.

While whether the students like me comes second to trying to teach effectively, I will make a few points:

- Students sometimes dislike teachers for irrational reasons, e.g. blood type, facial hair, misinterpretted expression, etc.

- Students' expectations are the biggest determiner of whether they think a teacher is reasonable. If they've been given the impression that you're there to teach and they're there to learn, you can teach and you can insist that they try to learn. If they've been given the impression that you're there to make English 'punny', you're fucked. You will never be entertaining enough to everyone enough of the time.

- Your relationship with your co-workers has an enormous influence over how your students perceive you.

- You can lay down the discipline when the students know they are out of line, and they'll understand this and not hate you for it (except for the odd few who detest everything about school to begin with), unless of course your students don't think you're a real teacher to start with.

- There are many things about your personality that will determine how students perceive you, and these are very difficult to change. Sometimes someone just has an agreeable personality or he / she doesn't.

- Teaching can seem like a thankless task at times, but acts of kindness do get noticed and remembered.

[wylies99]

The difference in class sizes between hagwons and public schools is what make things nearly impossible for many public school teachers.

[Seul]

New public school teacher here. The main challenge I have is the varying levels of English skills in my classes of 25 students. In every class, I have kids that speak English very well and some that can barely speak at all. The SMOE lesson plans are waaaaay too easy for some and yet too advanced for others.

The way my school structures it, each lesson is comprised of four 40 minute class periods. The first and fourth period, I teach the entire class with a co-teacher. In the second and third period, we split up the class into two different rooms based on their English level. I teach the kids with the better English skills, and they are extremely bright! I have the freedom to deviate from the curriculum and basically teach whatever I want. We quickly cover what the slower class covers in about 15 minutes, and then we get into way more detail. Real learning definitely gets done, and we have fun doing it. This system creates even a bigger skill gap among the entire class, but I think that overall every student is learning more this way.

[bogey666]

I'm a public school vocational teacher (bottom of the food chain in terms of ability and interest in English)

actually SOME of my kids do attend hogwans.. not many though.

clearly, they are more advanced than the others (which isn't actually saying MUCH) but yes, there are varying levels of ability in class sizes of nearly 40.

It's very difficult to deal with if you're trying to teach an entire class. Personally I have found myself "dumbing down" the material since day one of beginning to teach here, because I HAD TO. it's slightly different with some of the freshmen this year, their English is definitely better (and I was told their incoming scores were definitely better). I try to tailor the lesson plan/ideas to the majority and whenever possible, slip in more complicated things for those who might be bored.

(since we're on the topic, I did a weather class last year, and one of the kids in the back told the Korean teacher - and she translated - this is boring, we know this. Which would have been a great comment, except clearly most of the class did NOT "know it" - or couldn't asnwer a simple question like "how's the weather today"?? - instead, they'd turn to their classmate/friend and say - boh-rey? (what did he say?)

btw Goku
your avatar annoys the shit out of me, because it's painting with too broad a brush.

give me interested and at least somewhat motivated students and there's no need for any of that garbage. Even in my highschool classes, my main motivation for learning French (since forgotten) was getting a good grade, not any innate interest or love of the language. Here, in some instances, they don't even have THAT incentive.

I guess thru the power of your awe inspiring detailed professional "lesson plans" and your barrier shattering force of personality, you don't need any of that stuff, eh????

I personally limit games in my classroom, though I believe especially in ESL they have a role, and absolutely no "stickers", (that's kiddie stuff) but I AM generous with candy. I was told by my Korean co-teachers when starting it's one of the best/only ways to motivate them and indeed it is.

re progression - comaparing a class size of a dozen or so or even less than 20, to a class of 40, when you see a small class 5x a week, vs seeing them ONCE a week at the public high school is really a joke.

you can only make those kinds of comparison with after school classes - which are smaller and one sees (at least I do) , 4x a week.