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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: Owner wants me to take vacation one day at a time.......... |
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Last year I worked for the public schools and my vacation time was cut and dried. The contract called for 2 weeks in the winter break and 1 week in the summer break. I also got off work a couple more weeks due to test days, field trips, and school functions. It seemed like every other week I was getting an extra day off. But that is beside the point. For now I want to discuss only contract vacation days.
I started working a hagwon February 23 and the very next week it was sold. I posted about it before but to make a long story short I almost left at that time but after a sit-down with the new owner I decided to stay.
Two days ago I went in to request one week vacation(5 working days) 6 weeks from now. I want to emphasize the word request- I was very respectful and not demanding. I realize hagwons don't have the down time like the public schools, and so I was prepared for him to suggest another time. If he said no, fine, my back-up question then would be "when would be a good time?"
Well, he doesn't speak English, but when my Korean co-teacher asked him for me I could tell something was wrong. Turns out he never looked at the details of my contract when he bought the place, only the salary I was making. He assumed I only got the 2 or 3 vacation days that your average Korean hagwon teacher got, not the 15 days my contract calls for. Can you believe that?
So he rushes to get a copy of my contract to study and finds that I am supposed to give 2 months notice for vacation. Ok fine, I think it over that night and decide to postpone my vacation until August, which is over 3 months away and so everyone should be happy, right? But no, it's not that simple-he wanted me to wait until today to discuss my entire vacation with him.
I am sure you can guess where this is heading by the subject line. He gave me a real sob story that he didn't realize I got vacation and try to put myself in his shoes and understand his situation. He doesn't want me to take more than a day or 2 at a time because he can't afford not to have me there. And you know what, I am not opposed to working out a compromise with the guy. It's not my first preference but I would not be 100% opposed to a series of 3 or 4 day long weekends. It helps to break the monotony. But here is what I find galling. Even then I will have no real say when I get these days-it will be totally up to him. And he won't even say when, as of now he will only give me the "probable" months I can take these days. Which gives me this strange feeling he will try to hose me out of some of my days.
My question is, if a contract is not specific as to when and in what blocks vacation days can be taken, can an owner dictate what I described above? Has any one else had a similar experience? Do I have any recourse? Or is it a matter of either accepting it or giving notice? |
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John_ESL_White
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Book your vacation. Bring in the e-ticket. Explain it's paid for and you are going and that you've given enough notice. Anything less and you will lose most of your vacation. I've lost days because of guys like him.
First, book, then show, then explain, well in advance. As long as your contract says 30 days or 60 days and you give it, then that's that and he can cover your classes with a korean teacher. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| John_ESL_White wrote: |
Book your vacation. Bring in the e-ticket. Explain it's paid for and you are going and that you've given enough notice. Anything less and you will lose most of your vacation. I've lost days because of guys like him.
First, book, then show, then explain, well in advance. As long as your contract says 30 days or 60 days and you give it, then that's that and he can cover your classes with a korean teacher. |
DO NOT FOLLOW THIS HORRIBLE ADVICE!
Talk your way through this one. Ask your boss to go out for a meal and some soju, along with your co-teacher. Become friendly. Build a relationship.
Realize that this guy is in a bind. He's likely kicking himself for not reading your contract.
While out at dinner, building a rapport, letting him know you understand where he is coming from, start working out a compromise. Let him know you want to visit all the beautiful places Korea has to offer. Ask him where he thinks you should go.
This kind of atmosphere is far more conducive to working out an amicable arrangement. Throwing an e-ticket in his facem telling him what he must do with only make your situation worse.
Show respect to the chain of command and you will find Koreans are easier to deal with that some people will lead you to believe.
Good luck. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, a bold move. Better than giving notice (if I got to that point) because it's within the contract and would put the ball in his court. It would definitely sour the working relationship, but if I was at the point of giving notice anyway, what would I have to lose? I guess he could make my work life a living hell.
I will have to consider that some more. Any other suggestions out there? |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| John_ESL_White wrote: |
Book your vacation. Bring in the e-ticket. Explain it's paid for and you are going and that you've given enough notice. Anything less and you will lose most of your vacation. I've lost days because of guys like him.
First, book, then show, then explain, well in advance. As long as your contract says 30 days or 60 days and you give it, then that's that and he can cover your classes with a korean teacher. |
DO NOT FOLLOW THIS HORRIBLE ADVICE!
Talk your way through this one. Ask your boss to go out for a meal and some soju, along with your co-teacher. Become friendly. Build a relationship.
Realize that this guy is in a bind. He's likely kicking himself for not reading your contract.
While out at dinner, building a rapport, letting him know you understand where he is coming from, start working out a compromise. Let him know you want to visit all the beautiful places Korea has to offer. Ask him where he thinks you should go.
This kind of atmosphere is far more conducive to working out an amicable arrangement. Throwing an e-ticket in his facem telling him what he must do with only make your situation worse.
Show respect to the chain of command and you will find Koreans are easier to deal with that some people will lead you to believe.
Good luck. |
I didn't see your post before I replied to John_ESL_White. Believe me I will consider diplomacy as an option. If you read my OP, I think you can see that I am trying to be reasonable here. I have just never heard of a western teacher being asked to take his or her vacation this way, |
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John_ESL_White
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| John_ESL_White wrote: |
Book your vacation. Bring in the e-ticket. Explain it's paid for and you are going and that you've given enough notice. Anything less and you will lose most of your vacation. I've lost days because of guys like him.
First, book, then show, then explain, well in advance. As long as your contract says 30 days or 60 days and you give it, then that's that and he can cover your classes with a korean teacher. |
DO NOT FOLLOW THIS HORRIBLE ADVICE!
Talk your way through this one. Ask your boss to go out for a meal and some soju, along with your co-teacher. Become friendly. Build a relationship.
Realize that this guy is in a bind. He's likely kicking himself for not reading your contract.
While out at dinner, building a rapport, letting him know you understand where he is coming from, start working out a compromise. Let him know you want to visit all the beautiful places Korea has to offer. Ask him where he thinks you should go.
This kind of atmosphere is far more conducive to working out an amicable arrangement. Throwing an e-ticket in his facem telling him what he must do with only make your situation worse.
Show respect to the chain of command and you will find Koreans are easier to deal with that some people will lead you to believe.
Good luck. |
I didn't see your post before I replied to John_ESL_White. Believe me I will consider diplomacy as an option. If you read my OP, I think you can see that I am trying to be reasonable here. I have just never heard of a western teacher being asked to take his or her vacation this way, |
I've seen both approaches taken and I've taken each at different times. Others have had fair results doing it the other way; I got skrewed that way and lost vacation while those at my school who put the e-ticket in the guys face and amicable, calmly, and maturly, discussed the vacation with the boss got their vacation.
Balls in your court. Go with your gut. Each way can work; depends on the individual hagwon owner.
The guy's in a bind? my arse. He'll have 60 days to work out his schedule problem.
Do what you can, the way you can, and let us know if it works for you.
There is no best way or wrong way. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Just because you have a right to vacation providing you give sufficient notice, doesn't mean you have a right to specific days. Showing an e-ticket presumes which days you will take off. |
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John_ESL_White
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| Just because you have a right to vacation providing you give sufficient notice, doesn't mean you have a right to specific days. Showing an e-ticket presumes which days you will take off. |
When a contract says, give 60 days notice before you take vacation, then you give 60 days and then you take vacation.
e-ticket is 61 days out from the vacation notice. that's 60 days notice.
give me a break |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Op,
You now slaveee.
What posesesd you to transfer from a PS to a hogwan? |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| John_ESL_White wrote: |
When a contract says, give 60 days notice before you take vacation, then you give 60 days and then you take vacation.
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I've yet to meet a boss that allows his/her employees to dictate vacation days.
What is meant by 60 days notice is this: you must give 60 days and get approval. If you don't give 60 days, you won't get approval. Give 60 days and you might get approval. And over the course of the contract, you will get your 15 days. |
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buster brown
Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And over the course of the contract, you will get your 15 days. |
This is a pretty big assumption. If the hogwan's new owner only thought he was getting 2 or 3 days...then he only wants to give 2 or 3 days total. I'm willing to bet that every time a vacation request is made, it will be turned down for some reason or another. He's also going to count weekends and national holidays as vacation time, even if the contract specifies otherwise. Somebody is going to have to yield in this situation--the owner thinks it will be the OP, the OP thinks it will be the owner. The OP needs to make sure the owner knows he has no intention of backing down from the 15 days.
The owner wants you to recognize that he's in a bind...aren't you the one in a bind, OP? You signed a contract with the understanding that you would have 15 vacation days to use at your discretion. He's clearly not afraid to use the contract when it's in his best interest (his insistence on the 60 days' notice). This has set a precedent in your working relationship that you can now follow...point to the contract! You can always make up some face-saving story about how you need to get away to see your ailing father, mother, grandmother, etc. and you can't travel back home with less than a week (or 2) at one time.
OP, you've got some tough decisions to make. Unfortunately, almost any scenario that results in you getting more than 3 days will lead to a difficult working environment. Let us know what you do and how it works out...and document everything in case there's a Labor dispute in your future. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
Op,
You now slaveee.
What posesesd you to transfer from a PS to a hogwan? |
The answer to that is greed, pure and simple.
There was a thread on Dave's a while back regarding the "secret to longevity" here in Korea. Of course many were giving their advice and opinions. I can't remember who said it but one veteran said in effect, "don't always go chasing higher salaries". Turns out those were words of wisdom I wished I had listened to. My first year public school had a great schedule, ample vacation and extra time off, and on the side I had so many "cultural exchanges" I was passing some on to my friends. I long for those days.
We grow old too quick and smart too late! |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| buster brown wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And over the course of the contract, you will get your 15 days. |
This is a pretty big assumption. If the hogwan's new owner only thought he was getting 2 or 3 days...then he only wants to give 2 or 3 days total. I'm willing to bet that every time a vacation request is made, it will be turned down for some reason or another. He's also going to count weekends and national holidays as vacation time, even if the contract specifies otherwise. Somebody is going to have to yield in this situation--the owner thinks it will be the OP, the OP thinks it will be the owner. The OP needs to make sure the owner knows he has no intention of backing down from the 15 days.
The owner wants you to recognize that he's in a bind...aren't you the one in a bind, OP? You signed a contract with the understanding that you would have 15 vacation days to use at your discretion. He's clearly not afraid to use the contract when it's in his best interest (his insistence on the 60 days' notice). This has set a precedent in your working relationship that you can now follow...point to the contract! You can always make up some face-saving story about how you need to get away to see your ailing father, mother, grandmother, etc. and you can't travel back home with less than a week (or 2) at one time.
OP, you've got some tough decisions to make. Unfortunately, almost any scenario that results in you getting more than 3 days will lead to a difficult working environment. Let us know what you do and how it works out...and document everything in case there's a Labor dispute in your future. |
bobbybigfoot you sound like a reasonable guy and I totally agree that diplomacy is usually the best course to take but I have to agree with buster brown that this is a big assumption to make. Even you said this in another thread post just yesterday:
bobbybigfoot wrote:
Brutal dude. You never thought to check with the pension office until now? Surely you knew how crooked Korea can be?
This ain't Kansas, Toto!
The one thing I have going for me right now is that I don't have to make a decision right away. I am going to think things through. I do appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. |
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bobbybigfoot
Joined: 05 May 2007
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| buster brown wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And over the course of the contract, you will get your 15 days. |
This is a pretty big assumption. If the hogwan's new owner only thought he was getting 2 or 3 days...then he only wants to give 2 or 3 days total. I'm willing to bet that every time a vacation request is made, it will be turned down for some reason or another. He's also going to count weekends and national holidays as vacation time, even if the contract specifies otherwise. Somebody is going to have to yield in this situation--the owner thinks it will be the OP, the OP thinks it will be the owner. The OP needs to make sure the owner knows he has no intention of backing down from the 15 days.
The owner wants you to recognize that he's in a bind...aren't you the one in a bind, OP? You signed a contract with the understanding that you would have 15 vacation days to use at your discretion. He's clearly not afraid to use the contract when it's in his best interest (his insistence on the 60 days' notice). This has set a precedent in your working relationship that you can now follow...point to the contract! You can always make up some face-saving story about how you need to get away to see your ailing father, mother, grandmother, etc. and you can't travel back home with less than a week (or 2) at one time.
OP, you've got some tough decisions to make. Unfortunately, almost any scenario that results in you getting more than 3 days will lead to a difficult working environment. Let us know what you do and how it works out...and document everything in case there's a Labor dispute in your future. |
bobbybigfoot you sound like a reasonable guy and I totally agree that diplomacy is usually the best course to take but I have to agree with buster brown that this is a big assumption to make. Even you said this in another thread post just yesterday:
bobbybigfoot wrote:
Brutal dude. You never thought to check with the pension office until now? Surely you knew how crooked Korea can be?
This ain't Kansas, Toto!
The one thing I have going for me right now is that I don't have to make a decision right away. I am going to think things through. I do appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. |
Let me clarify my position:
* use diplomacy to get what you are contractually obliged to get (as much as you can get: This ain't Kansas, Toto!)
* be flexible
* keep your eyes and ears open.
* Don't be a sucker.
If your boss agrees to give you X weekends off and then reneges on that promise then you may have no other choice than to give notice and go find another job. The biggest problem is that you will likely have put in about 6 months by the time you find out for certain that your boss is a scoundrel. At that point, you would be foregoing your severance. Perhaps you could work out a bonus in lieu of vacation days. e.g. Take 7 vacation days, get paid for the other 8. I know it's not ideal, but sometimes you have to make the best out of a bad situation. |
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John_ESL_White
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| bobbybigfoot wrote: |
| John_ESL_White wrote: |
When a contract says, give 60 days notice before you take vacation, then you give 60 days and then you take vacation.
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I've yet to meet a boss that allows his/her employees to dictate vacation days.
What is meant by 60 days notice is this: you must give 60 days and get approval. If you don't give 60 days, you won't get approval. Give 60 days and you might get approval. And over the course of the contract, you will get your 15 days. |
If you can't dictate your vacation days 60 days in advance, you're an idiot and you deserve to be treated as such.
diplomacy my arse. You are new to the work force and are still trying to figure this whole "work" for someone thing out.
bobbybigfoot, you sound like a 23 year old. I hope you are not older because that would be sad.
If anyone wants to take 5 days of his or her vacation, then give advance notice and take the days in a ROW not one here and one there; that's retarded. The BEST way to do this is to say, "I booked a flight to JJJ for this date, KKK" and then let them deal with the class.
Anything less is retarded.
jesus christ. it's clear why wages stay so low for you guys. you're mostly spineless jellyfish strait out of the womb. |
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