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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| ...I find their perspective especially valuable. |
Would that be the 18th Century perspective? 
(I'm sorry. I just couldn't help myself after seeing RP's call for letters of marque and reprisal to deal with the Somali pirates.) |
How would you like it if I made Al Sharpton the poster boy for liberals? I mean two can play at this game. Actually, screw it, I'll just use Pelosi. My bet is, Ya-Ta, even you would squirm if she were to become the monolith of liberalism. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| The libertarians are a very reasonable group. |
On some matters, such as ethical legislation, victimless crimes, and so forth, yes they are. On many other matters, such as governmental regulations and social programs, no they aren't. |
On social programs and gov'tal regulations, they tend to at least question the status quo. Like, has the War on Poverty's increase in social welfare programs succeeded? (no) Also, is the hidden cost of X gov't regulation worth the result of X gov't regulation? (depends).
Yes, libertarians are at least asking the questions. And given the impetus of gov't retrenchment, I find their perspective especially valuable. |
Questioning the status quo is good; what we are doing as a society should be under constant evaluation, and the act of questioning is reasonable.
What's unreasonable is saying things like government shouldn't enforce health and safety regulations when it comes to products, or that companies shouldn't be forced to put nutritional and ingredient information on their consumable goods, or that fuel emissions should be totally unregulated by the government. They futher tend to come to conclusions like, "Because the government's current anti-poverty measures have failed, we shouldn't have any government-run anti-poverty measures at all," which isn't sound.
Some individual Libertarian policies are good, but Libertarianism as an all-encompassing political philosophy is not, and that is what a Libertarian enspouses. That's what makes them an unreasonable group: they take it to an extreme. It's not their questioning that is unreasonable, it's their answers, which generally consist of, "Government attempts at x haven't been perfect so far, so the government should give up on x." |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| The libertarians are a very reasonable group. |
On some matters, such as ethical legislation, victimless crimes, and so forth, yes they are. On many other matters, such as governmental regulations and social programs, no they aren't. |
There are many different varieties of libertarians. I'm most fond of the crew from Reason Mag. They are quite solid on government regulation.
Social programs.. Which ones do you refer to? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...I find their perspective especially valuable. |
Would that be the 18th Century perspective?
(I'm sorry. I just couldn't help myself after seeing RP's call for letters of marque and reprisal to deal with the Somali pirates.) |
Yes. It would be the classical liberal tradition. The one that made the west what it is/was. I'm quite confident that the implosion of the state-capitalist model is just around the corner. We'll check back in on this then.
Regarding the Somali pirates. Firstly, they are a side show. But secondly, I would not drive around Edmonton with a billion dollars in my car without some heat. Large boats should not either. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| Quote: |
| That's what makes them an unreasonable group: they take it to an extreme. |
Hey, the state just blew up the largest economy in human history. It tortures, makes war for no reason, criminalizes poverty (war on drugs), has a happy history of genocide, slavery, oppression, discrimination.
Now, we see it has been totally - fully completely - bought by the financial services industry et al.
And it is the libertarians who are unreasonable for pointing out that this is exactly to the point what we said would fucking happen if the state was to expand beyond protection of persons and property. Libertarians have been saying for a very, very long time that if you expand the state to rule over all aspects of life the primary goal of elite competition in a society will be over who gets to control that power.
Now your health care is shit because the insurance companies control the system, your money is worth 95% less than 70 years ago because banksters want you to have to borrow rather than save, you will go to jail for holding a plant to benefit the alcohol/tobacco/pharmaceutical/prison industries, your government feels fine taking your future income and giving it to bankster criminals, wars being waged at the benefit of KBR and Halliburton, an entire class of people (poor) are in and out of a bizarre and inhuman "correctional" facilities. Etc. Everything the state touches it fucks up. Everything.
The state is like a lawyer. It represents clients. Fox, you are not a client. I am not a client (though my employer most certainly is). The state is the primary obstacle you will face in living a full, prosperous life. Westerners of our age (20's) will have a much lower standard of living because the previous generations voted themselves benefits they figured we'd be happy to pay for.
No. I'd rather not. If it makes me unreasonable to accept power from the barrel of a gun, then so be it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| mises wrote: |
| Social programs.. Which ones do you refer to? |
Are you asking me:
1) Which social programs currently exist that Libertarians object to?
2) Which social programs exist that, in their current form, are perfect?
3) Which social programs exist that, while not necessarily perfect, should exist, and be improved rather than abolished if they aren't perfect?
I was saying I felt Libertarians were wrong in general in their blanket opposition to social programs, rather than speaking of any individually. Your response doesn't seem to be related to that general statement, so I'm unsure exactly what you're asking. Sorry. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Which ones do you feel are worthy? Start with that. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| mises wrote: |
The state is like a lawyer. It represents clients. Fox, you are not a client. I am not a client (though my employer most certainly is). The state is the primary obstacle you will face in living a full, prosperous life. Westerners of our age (20's) will have a much lower standard of living because the previous generations voted themselves benefits they figured we'd be happy to pay for. |
GM is a client. The UAW is a client. The average consumer is not a client.
Goldman Sachs is a client. Baby Boomer retirees are a client. The average 20-something is not a client.
The rich are a client. The middle-class is a client. The poor are not a client.
The libertarian suggests that government have a narrow, limited, defined scope and not transgress that scope. Mises is right insofar as that was the US gov't of the 19th Century (and early 20th). When FDR expanded gov't, he squashed libertarianism, but enabled Reaganomics.
In America today, the question isn't whether special interests, its which special interests. The libertarian revolts at the framework, and attacks special interests generally. Some libertarians take this farther than others, and some libertarians admit more market failure than others. But at the heart is a healthy suspicion of government and a very American faith in the individual. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| mises wrote: |
| Now, we see it has been totally - fully completely - bought by the financial services industry et al. |
| mises wrote: |
| Now your health care is shit because the insurance companies control the system |
| mises wrote: |
| your money is worth 95% less than 70 years ago because banksters want you to have to borrow rather than save |
| mises wrote: |
| wars being waged at the benefit of KBR and Halliburton, |
These are all private organizations you are laying the ultimate blame on the doorstep of. You are saying the government was corrupted by these private enterprises. I don't disagree. I see corruption, and my reaction is that we need more government accountability, more government transparecy, and much greater limits on the ability of private enterprises to affect politics. By no means do I feel the answer is to regulate these super-giant corporations less; they shouldn't even be allowed to exist, it isolates too much economic power in the hands of too few.
Believing market forces can somehow stop corporations of that type from arising if only the government doesn't intervene is a leap of faith most of us aren't willing to take, unless you have a few U.S. sized modern economies that utilize unregulated free markets to draw data from. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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This conversation annoys me. I fully reject the premise that the mainstream is reasonable. I see insanity being presented as mainstream everyday.
Anyways, it is little different in Canada. Just better PR. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| Quote: |
| These are all private organizations you are laying the ultimate blame on the doorstep of. You are saying the government was corrupted by these private enterprises. I don't disagree. I see corruption, and my reaction is that we need more government accountability, more government transparecy, and much greater limits on the ability of private enterprises to affect politics. |
Government accountability? To who? At what penalty? What consequence will be had? Did you know that Paulson committed securities fraud about 6 months ago? We all know. The SEC knows. Every dog on Wall Street knows. Do you think Paulson will have any punishment?
Fox. How naive are you?
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| By no means do I feel the answer is to regulate these super-giant corporations less; they shouldn't even be allowed to exist, it isolates too much economic power in the hands of too few. |
They. Wouldn't. Exist. When firms become very large they implode. That is, unless they game the system via government to ensure their survival. No need to further involve the government and ergo further expand their incentive to own government. Just let them fail.
| Quote: |
| Believing market forces can somehow stop corporations of that type from arising if only the government doesn't intervene is a leap of faith most of us aren't willing to take, unless you have a few U.S. sized modern economies that utilize unregulated free markets to draw data from. |
Here are the largest firms in the USA:
Wal-Mart Stores, Exxon Mobil Corp., General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., General Electric Co., Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Citigroup Inc., ChevronTexaco Corp., ConocoPhillips, AIG (American International Group), Altria ex-Philip Morris Co., IBM (International Business Machines), Home Depot Inc., Cargill Inc, Cardinal Health Inc., Hewlett-Packard Co., Procter & Gamble, Co., USPS (United States Postal Service), Verizon Communications,
The only one of those that might have a fighting chance of surviving without the government tit is Wal Mart. And even then, suburbia is a government creation and without suburbia, Wal Mart likely would never have started. Wal Mart also needs access to all the free roads the state builds to ensure cost competitiveness with local products. I can't speak about Verizon.
The oil firms might exist, but at significantly diminished sizes. The rest are absolutely toast. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Which ones do you feel are worthy? Start with that. |
Non-exhaustive list of examples of social programs that are worthy (though, at times, incorrectly implemented to varying degrees):
-Fire Fighting Services
-Public Libraries
-Temporary Unemployment Assistance
-Public Education
-Food Stamps
-Medical Assistance
-Road Construction and Maintenance
I would like to consider a certain suite of regulation in this category as well, including the regulation of food and drugs, the regulation of automotive emissions, the regulation of automotive safety, and the regulation of manufacturing emissions. While these things may not be actual "services" per se, their focus on the quality of life of citizen makes me want to include them as such. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: For the first time in 5 years... |
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| mises wrote: |
This conversation annoys me. I fully reject the premise that the mainstream is reasonable. I see insanity being presented as mainstream everyday.
Anyways, it is little different in Canada. Just better PR. |
I'm not defending the mainstream as universally reasonable, I am saying Libertarianism as an all-encompassing philosophy is unreasonable. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Which ones do you feel are worthy? Start with that. |
Non-exhaustive list of examples of social programs that are worthy (though, at times, incorrectly implemented to varying degrees):
-Fire Fighting Services
-Public Libraries
-Temporary Unemployment Assistance
-Public Education
-Food Stamps
-Medical Assistance
-Road Construction and Maintenance
I would like to consider a certain suite of regulation in this category as well, including the regulation of food and drugs, the regulation of automotive emissions, the regulation of automotive safety, and the regulation of manufacturing emissions. While these things may not be actual "services" per se, their focus on the quality of life of citizen makes me want to include them as such. |
Fantastic.
But why does this have to be on the Federal level? Why can't states individually decide whether to provide these things?
Taxation at the Federal level means that all the action takes place in US Congress. I think Congress does a terrible job. I would like to be able to have options. 50 options sounds better than 1, doesn't it?
That means that you could have your liberal enclave in CA, the libertarians could have their society in TX, and there would be multiple permutations of that within the other 48 states. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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But it isn't. Anarchy is unreasonable. And there is a branch of libertarianism (dominated by Milton Freedman's son David --his books are fantastic to read) that is unreasonable -anarcho capitalists.
The belief that the state has the public interest as a value is unreasonable. It simple doesn't. It is a beast that feeds off of society. It corrupts everything. That is unreasonable. |
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