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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
The Japanese would rather see robots working jobs than invite foreigners into Japan. They don't like immigrants and are don't believe in "Multiculturalism".
Look at Canada, the evidence shows that multiculturalism is a disaster; a huge failure, and has caused many problems for the country.
Yet, on the other hand, with the rapid demographic changes occurring in Japan, experts are saying that Japan needs more immigrants. Skilled immigrants. I doubt that will happen so, though. |
Japan has 1.21 children/woman. Japan is dying.
| TECO wrote: |
| Of all countries, does anyone think that America has been more successful in integrating newcomers? |
America has been successful at integrating newcomers it grants citizenship to. America has not been successful at integrating newcomers the country pretends does not exist.
| TECO wrote: |
| I hear France, U.K. and Germany are having similar problems integrating new immigrants as Canada. |
That's because France, UK, and Germany do not self-identify as multi-ethnic countries.
| TECO wrote: |
Australia, on the other hand, seem to know exactly who they are and haven't kicked open the doors to the country to just anyone who wants to move there. I'm not a big fan of Australia or Australians, but I can appreciate how they are fighting to keep what they have and not become the hotel of the world like Canada has become. |
Canada's failures mean it needs to assure that newcomers who arrive are able to find jobs. It does not mean Canada should abandon its goal of a multi-ethnic society.
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at any rate, I can kind of see where the Japanese are coming from on this and that immigrants bring a lot of grief for them. |
Immigrants don't bring a lot of grief to countries that know how to handle them. Japan is a closed and stubborn society. That's the real problem. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
Article:
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The British National Party (BNP), which has a whites-only membership policy and has flatly denied the Holocaust, won more than 5 percent of the vote in London�s last mayoral election. Then there�s Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest), formerly Vlaams Bloc, whose leaders have a regrettable tendency to be caught on film singing Nazi songs and buying Nazi books. In 2007, it won five out of 40 seats in the Belgian Senate.
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Interesting article, but this is the idiocy that comes from closed borders and closed minds.
If Europe wants another genocidal war, then I guess its past due  |
I've been making the argument for years. If the mainstream right and left wing political organizations of Europe do not stop the muslim advance, the extreme and racist right will. In that article the point is made that in several states right of center political parties have won elections with the assumption that they would slow (muslim) immigration, and then didn't. As this economic downturn goes on (for at least a decade) it is going to get harder and harder to justify keeping muslims in, for example, Sweden (where 75% are on welfare, and commit almost all violent rapes). If the mainstream doesn't deal with this, the radicals will. |
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hellofaniceguy
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Location: On your computer screen!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
I don't mean to talk too much, but..
Isn't this Earth just one big country? It seems INSANE to me that people or governments can think of building walls and keeping people out of their little corner (North Korea excluded).
In this age? It's impossible. That country will be sanctioned, petitioned and generally run over in the future. Immigration is, especially now, a given for all countries.
I'll shush up now.  |
Seems to me...earth countries should be banding together and stop those folks from Mars, Pluto, Venus, etc. from coming here! |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Sure multiculturalism isn't perfect but isn't as bad as right -wingers would have you to believe.
America has some of the best doctors from India, some of the hardest workers from Latin America, and the best food from everywhere. The US also has some of the most interesting people in the world that are from all over the world. I think its makes a country better not worse.
I like a multicultural society it is not as boring as place with only one culture. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| muslims in, for example, Sweden (where 75% are on welfare, and commit almost all violent rapes). |
Source please!!!!
75% is crazy high number, I would believe it would be a higher percentage than native Swedes but 75% is crazy.
I have Muslim friend back in the states and he is doctor. He likes to drink but not during Ramadan. LOL There are a lot of moderate Muslims out there mises. Moderate Muslims are the vast majority in most countries. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I posted an article that is full of fun stats on the previous page.
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| 75% is crazy high number, I would believe it would be a higher percentage than native Swedes but 75% is crazy. |
In 2002, economist Lars Jansson estimated that immigration cost Swedish taxpayers about $27 billion annually and that fully 74 percent of immigrant-group members in Sweden lived off the taxpayers.
http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_pim-fortuyn.html
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| Moderate Muslims are the vast majority in most countries. |
Define a "moderate muslim" and then Source please!!! |
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harlowethrombey
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| aboxofchocolates wrote: |
| TECO wrote: |
Look at Canada, the evidence shows that multiculturalism is a disaster; a huge failure, and has caused many problems for the country.
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Are you refering to european immigrants landing in the 1600's? They did make quite a mess of things. |
Yeah it sucks being asked to leave and never come back but they're being paid. Wow. It's a little better than the deal immigrants get in other countries where you're destitute, jobless and then living on the streets because you cant afford to go back to your own countries.
Maybe its partly xenophobia, but its also partly because they dont want a big, transient immigrant population. A japanese person that loses his/her job still has an extended family to fall back on. When Nova collapsed a few years ago suddenly there were thousands upon thousands of gaijin out of work, with no place to live, no money to leave the country and no family to stay with until they got back on their feet. I think that kind of freaked the government out so now they're doing this. |
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bundangbabo
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Mises - important word there - estimated more hot air from some right wing, reactionary economist and what he has to say is not applicable as stated fact. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Lars Jansson is a "right wing, reactionary economist"? He critical of multiculturalism and mass immigration from the so-called muslim world. He supports the welfare state, gay rights, etc etc etc that are classically leftist positions. He correctly sees how muslim multi(mono?)culturalism will undermine the Swedish model.
Maybe you want something to be true that isn't, and insist on ad homonyms to protect yourself emotionally from the total dissolution of your ideology?
The actual fact of muslim employment in Sweden is likely much worse. The 75% is "all immigrants", including Chinese, Americans, Koreans etc. Individuals from those cultures tend to have extremely strong work ethics. The muslim unemployment rate is likely much, much higher. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| No_hite_pls wrote: |
Sure multiculturalism isn't perfect but isn't as bad as right -wingers would have you to believe.
America has some of the best doctors from India, some of the hardest workers from Latin America, and the best food from everywhere. The US also has some of the most interesting people in the world that are from all over the world. I think its makes a country better not worse.
I like a multicultural society it is not as boring as place with only one culture. |
You mean multi-ethnic. A multi-ethnic society is just the norm. Nothing to oppose in any way. Regarding things like food, music, dress. Those aren't culture but cultural-artifacts. So with multi-cultural-artifactism, we have little to oppose. But culture properly define is a "shared perspective". Lots about culture must be opposed (including parts of Occidental traditions).
Take this, for example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1174046/Labour-Party-embroiled-race-row-candidate-told-white-Jewish-selected.html
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The Labour Party has become embroiled in a race row after a prospective female councillor was allegedly told she was 'too white and Jewish' to be selected.
Elaina Cohen claims that Labour councillor Mahmood Hussain said he would not support her application for an inner-city ward because 'my Muslim members don't want you because you are Jewish'. |
A strong element of muslim culture is antisemitism. Hatred and contempt for the Jews is strong in the koran and hadiths. It is part of their culture from the founding of islam (not just since the problems with Israel), and we are not enriched by importing it. muslim culture treats women like cattle and gays as target practice. We are not enriched by importing that. muslm culture has a strong manifest destiny that does not enrich us.
If all muslim immigration to France were to stop today, and only the birthrates held relatively constant, France will be a majority muslim country by 2025, according to Sam Harris (hardly a right-winger). When the muslims control democratic outcomes in France, France then stops being France, as we know it. This is either good, bad or neutral. I say it is bad, and therefore the French must begin resettling muslims into the "muslim world" so as to preserve their culture. The preservation of French culture is a global public good. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
I posted an article that is full of fun stats on the previous page.
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| 75% is crazy high number, I would believe it would be a higher percentage than native Swedes but 75% is crazy. |
In 2002, economist Lars Jansson estimated that immigration cost Swedish taxpayers about $27 billion annually and that fully 74 percent of immigrant-group members in Sweden lived off the taxpayers.
http://www.city-journal.org/2009/19_2_pim-fortuyn.html
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| Moderate Muslims are the vast majority in most countries. |
Define a "moderate muslim" and then Source please!!! |
I already did in my previous post. "I have Muslim friend back in the states and he is doctor. He likes to drink but not during Ramadan. LOL "
He is also a Republican but he did vote for Obama.
mises I like most of your posts but you need to moderate a little on the muslims. I know that there are many bad Muslims but they are not in the majority in most countries! |
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bundangbabo
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Lars Jansson is a "right wing, reactionary economist"? He critical of multiculturalism and mass immigration from the so-called muslim world. He supports the welfare state, gay rights, etc etc etc that are classically leftist positions. He correctly sees how muslim multi(mono?)culturalism will undermine the Swedish model.
Maybe you want something to be true that isn't, and insist on ad homonyms to protect yourself emotionally from the total dissolution of your ideology?
The actual fact of muslim employment in Sweden is likely much worse. The 75% is "all immigrants", including Chinese, Americans, Koreans etc. Individuals from those cultures tend to have extremely strong work ethics. The muslim unemployment rate is likely much, much higher. |
I knew you couldn't come up with any official statistics - thanks for playing mises!  |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, you're welcome. Feel free to learn Swedish, figure out who the acceptable economists for your ideology are and get back to me with your suggestions.
Or. You can visit Malmo and wander around on a Tuesday afternoon and see the mass unemployment for yourself.
Or2, you can use google:
http://ideas.repec.org/p/hhs/sunrpe/2002_0009.html
| Quote: |
Author Info
Nekby, Lena (Dept. of Economics, Stockholm University)
Additional information is available for the following registered author(s):
* Lena Nekby
Abstract
This study examines the employment convergence patterns of
various immigrant groups to natives in Sweden. Using data with
annual information (1990-1997) on more than 200,000 individuals,
the probability of being regularly employed is estimated, by gender
and region of birth, for immigrants with varying duration of
residence in Sweden. The results indicate that employment
convergence occurs primarily during the first 10 to 15 years after
immigration and that significant differences to natives remain
thereafter. East and Non European immigrants indicate 55 � 70
percent lower chances of being regularly employed, compared to
natives, after twenty years in Sweden. |
Which is incredible, given that Sweden has a real unemployment rate of about 15-20%. Even McKinsey Global Institute puts Sweden's unemployment rate at 15%, and that was before this depression.
http://www.johannorberg.net/?page=displayblog&month=9&year=2004#416
http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/sweden/
What's 55-70% lower than that??
Anyways, this comes as no surprise. A society that has extremely high taxes, an inflexible labour market and a massive welfare state and has high levels of third world immigration is asking for the system to be undermined. And that is exactly what is happening.
http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2009/02/once-again-its-the-economy-stupid/
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Goodbye to the welfare state
In the process the Left has also undermined its signal creation, the modern welfare state.
In a remarkable report from 2008, Denmark�s National Bank (the equivalent of the Bank of England or the Federal Reserve) writes:
�A major part of the immigration into Denmark over the past 15-20 years, particularly at the beginning of the period, has come from less developed countries and has consisted of people with a low participation in the labor market causing a relatively large drag on public welfare expenditures. This has lead to a deterioration of the public finances, i.e. it has aggravated the problem of sustainability.
If immigration is to support the financing of the public sector, it must be in the shape of so-called �super immigration�. This concept covers a person who does not immigrate until he has completed his education, who is immediately employable and has an employment frequency of 100 per cent, pays taxes like a Dane, does not bring along his family and leaves the country before he reaches pension age.�
A tall order indeed and one that has never been filled by the sort of immigrants Denmark has been attracting.
Yet the Left has no answer to offer except for more immigration and lamentations over the oppression of Muslims combined with a loving understanding of their need for �respect� and special treatment.
Of course, many � if not most � of the non-socialist parties have been equally eager to embrace mass immigration of non-integratable masses from the third world. But they haven�t really been that wedded to the cradle-to-grave welfare state � at least not in the beginning.
In fact, when we look at such countries as Germany, Holland, England, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, it was private enterprise that started importing cheap and unskilled labor from the rural populations of Bangla Desh, Pakistan, Turkey, Morocco and other such places to fill the gaps along the assembly lines. At that time � in the late sixties and seventies � many spokesmen for the labor unions and the socialist parties were critical of this unwelcome competition that threatened to drive down wages and undermine hard-fought labor rights.
That was when the old industrial society was on its hind legs, soon to be replaced by the knowledge society, in which many of the new immigrants were simply unemployable. Yet they were allowed to stay on, bring in their large families and collect welfare. |
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Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| I have Muslim friend back in the states and he is doctor. He likes to drink but not during Ramadan. LOL There are a lot of moderate Muslims out there mises. Moderate Muslims are the vast majority in most countries. |
How many is "a vast majority"?
1% of the Muslim world is 15 million people. Stats generally state that the percentage of Muslims who demand Shariah, support stoning women, etc, are a lot more than 1%
Vast majority or not, we're talking millions, maybe 10s or 100s of millions of Muslims, who demand Sharia, support stoning women and burning gays and Jews, etc. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I think it's a good idea if, and only if they don't have to leave. If it's just an option they can explore, then the immigrantsa should be happy to have it.
Korea wouldn't have to offer me much to leave. |
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