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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| 3MB wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| D.D. wrote: |
A guy that smacks around girls is the lowest of the low. If you are defending those guys then you fall into that category.
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Hitting a woman is no worse than hitting a man. Neither is acceptable or reasonable, but one is not worse, nor does indulging in one make one "lower" than indulging in the other. |
Are you serious? Does this logic extend to sexual harassment of women vs young girls? |
No, the logic doesn't extend. Sexual harassment is worse against young girls because, in addition to any criminal implications it has against an adult woman, it has the further criminal implications of pedophilia when applied to females who have not yet reached the age of majority. On the other hand, sexually harassing a woman is no worse (and no better) than sexually harassing a man.
| 3MB wrote: |
| Yes, its wrong to hit a man but it is not the same as hitting a woman for very VERY obvious reasons. |
Articulate those reasons if you will. I suspect they will be blatantly sexist. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Many women I have met are physically larger than many men I have met, particularly in America. So you're saying it would be no where near as objectionable to beat up large women as a small man? |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Articulate those reasons if you will. I suspect they will be blatantly sexist. |
Of course they will, but sexist or not, they still hold true. The fact is that there is a difference in how a man and a woman are able to defend themselves against an attack. If this is sexist, then so be it. But a man who hits a woman is a vile piece of garbage. This may in fact be a great example of patronizing on my part, and I man be vilified, by you as a sexist male. It really doesn't bother me at all. The world today has lost all perspective and as a result we get people arguing that hitting a man is the same thing as hitting a woman. I wonder what your agenda is, are you perhaps trying to justify yourself? |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Many women I have met are physically larger than many men I have met, particularly in America. So you're saying it would be no where near as objectionable to beat up large women as a small man? |
Ah of course, because we all know size always translates to strength. What a ridiculous statement that overlooks the basics of biology and anatomy. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Apologies in advance for only responding to segments of your post: angry statements about how people are vile rubbish or complaints about villification are difficult to have anything to say about.
| 3MB wrote: |
| Of course they will, but sexist or not, they still hold true. The fact is that there is a difference in how a man and a woman are able to defend themselves against an attack. |
For example?
| 3MB wrote: |
| The world today has lost all perspective and as a result we get people arguing that hitting a man is the same thing as hitting a woman. I wonder what your agenda is, are you perhaps trying to justify yourself? |
My agenda is equal treatment for adult humans, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. Equal rights, equal responsibilities. Pretending women are incapable victims in an era of technology, unprecedented legal and police protections, and so forth is primitive and outdated. Yes, it's a shame when a man hits a woman. It's also a shame when a man hits a man, or when a woman hits a man. It's a shame when two women are beating up a man, and a passing man attacks the man out of ignorance, then upon realizing the truth is far less concerned. Violence is a shame.
And in response to your clearly implied allegation, I have physically struck in order to harm precisely two people in my entire life: my brothers, when I was very young. I am a decided pacifist, I just happen to also be unwilling to treat women like incapable children when they aren't. People like you are the reason, incidentally, that so much domestic violence by women against men goes unreported: your bigotted, sexist attitude fills such individuals with shame.
And no, I'm not a domestic abuse victim either, before your emotional appeal/implied accusation style of argument turns down that back alleyway. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| 3MB wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Many women I have met are physically larger than many men I have met, particularly in America. So you're saying it would be no where near as objectionable to beat up large women as a small man? |
Ah of course, because we all know size always translates to strength. What a ridiculous statement that overlooks the basics of biology and anatomy. |
I responded to the words he posted. If you care to have a discussion about strength instead, and why in an era of technology, heavy police intervention, and society-driven social programs for assistance and relocation strength ceases to be anywhere near as much of an ethical concern, I'm happy to have that discussion instead. Given such a discussion has no room for emotional appeals or veiled accusations, though, I'm not sure you'd enjoy participating in it. |
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3MB
Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| 3MB wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Many women I have met are physically larger than many men I have met, particularly in America. So you're saying it would be no where near as objectionable to beat up large women as a small man? |
Ah of course, because we all know size always translates to strength. What a ridiculous statement that overlooks the basics of biology and anatomy. |
I responded to the words he posted. If you care to have a discussion about strength instead, and why in an era of technology, heavy police intervention, and society-driven social programs for assistance and relocation strength ceases to be anywhere near as much of an ethical concern, I'm happy to have that discussion instead. Given such a discussion has no room for emotional appeals or veiled accusations, though, I'm not sure you'd enjoy participating in it. |
We are talking about Korea and you bring up police intervention and social programs? Eyes wide shut? But lets assume for a minute that the cops here would do anything to intervene, and that if they did the joke courts would punish the guy, and that there was an actual social safety net to help out battered women...none of that in any way negates the fact that the bigger, stronger male beat the crap out of his smaller, weaker gf. All of what follows after the assault doesn't negate the physical and emotional damage done. Can a man do the same to another man? Physically at least, of course. I'm sure the same would happen to me or you if Mike Tyson attacked us. None of that changes the fact that on average men are stronger than women, and holds true even if the women are larger. Size doesn't translate to strength even among men, and it sure as hell doesn't translate to strength when we compare men and women...i.e. a 200lbs woman will not be stronger than a 160lbs man. While you may get the occasional exception, it doesn't nullify the general truth that men are stronger than women.
As far as veiled accusations go, I was thinking that you got yourseld beat up by a girl and are trying to justify that humiliation. But I obviously struck a nerve. |
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PaperTiger
Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: Ulaanbataar
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| Most men are capable of defending themselves. |
Yeah okay, tough guy...just watch out for those adjummas. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Bingo. Unless you're dating someone who's 180lbs and can bench her body weight, it's not the same. Is hitting a 14-year-old boy the same as hitting a 24-year-old man? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 3MB wrote: |
We are talking about Korea... |
We are talking about the general concept of "men who hit women." An event in Korea is what started the discussion, but my words and your responses to my words have been about violence between men and women in general; everything either of us has said has been in general terms. You want to limit the scope of the conversation to Korea because you're suddenly realizing exactly how weak your arguments become in the face of any sort of reasonable social intervention.
That said, the lack of social intervention doesn't strengthen your argument; lack of social intervention is a problem entirely on its own. Yes Korea has a problem, and that problem is a lack of proper social intervention. No, that doesn't suddenly make it worse to hit women than it is to hit men, it simpyl means Korea has some catching up to do in terms of protecting its citizens from crime.
| 3MB wrote: |
| ... none of that in any way negates the fact that the bigger, stronger male beat the crap out of his smaller, weaker gf. |
And this is where we diverge. You look at this and say, "It's a shame, because she's smaller and weaker (and, most importantly, a girl)." I look at it and say, "It's a shame, people hurt one another, and for very unimportant reasons." I find very little to recommend your line of thinking in this case.
| 3MB wrote: |
| As far as veiled accusations go, I was thinking that you got yourseld beat up by a girl and are trying to justify that humiliation. But I obviously struck a nerve. |
If I had been beaten up by a woman, it would fly in the face of your "Women are pathetic weaklings that must be protected above and beyond men," theory, but no such event occured (it's also not what you really implied; it's clear you were implicitly accusing me of domestic abuse).
As far as the "struck a nerve" claim, do you really feel that in addition to appeals to emotion and veiled accusations you need to add in childish attempts to construe me as somehow having been upset by your words? I'd really like it if we could just discuss the issue at hand without this sort of juvenille posturing; so far your argument has consisted of "Women are weak, so hitting them is worse," accompanied by insults and personal attacks via suggestion. Given I can provide a stronger defense of your case -- which I disagree with -- than that, you surely can to. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| D.D. wrote: |
| As kids tell it like it is " Pick on someone your own size" If you can't do that you are a coward. |
Bingo. Unless you're dating someone who's 180lbs and can bench her body weight, it's not the same. Is hitting a 14-year-old boy the same as hitting a 24-year-old man? |
Because people keep bringing up bodily strength, I thought I would articulate this outside of a post responding to 3B.
How strong a person is is totally unrelated to how morally acceptable it is to physically harm them. Harming children isn't worse because they're physically weak, it's worse because they're emotionally, intellectually, and socially less able to defend themselves in any way, both because of how our society treats them and because their brains are still developing. An adult who is struck can get help or escape the situation fairly easily if they choose. A child who is physically struck -- particularly by family members -- cannot do so anywhere nearly as easily.
Harming people (outside of self-defense, arguably) is just plain bad. It doesn't become less bad if the person you harm is stronger. It doesn't become more bad if the person you harm is weaker. It's just plain bad, dangerous, anti-social behavior.
It's this type of thinking certain people in this thread are articulating that causes the problems with female on male domestic abuse mentioned in the link I posted. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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Violence is wrong agreed! Protecting someone from a stronger person is Not the reason for males abusing women. What a strange concept you seem to be implying. that in the name of equality we should let men beat women.
Forget the gender, it is not the issue, the issue is a stronger individual using their strength to harm a weaker individual. How very strange that you dont believe they should be protected! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| Violence is wrong agreed! Protecting someone from a stronger person is Not the reason for males abusing women. What a strange concept you seem to be implying. that in the name of equality we should let men beat women. |
I never stated nor implied that. We assuredly should not allow men to beat women. I don't say in the name of equality we should allow men to beat women. I say in the name of equality, a man beating a woman, a man beating a man, a woman beating a woman, and a woman beating a man should all be considered equally reprehensible.
The reason they should be equally reprehensible is that the line of thinking that implies a man beating a woman is worse than a woman beating a man leads to social consequences such as those described in the web site I linked about female on male domestic violence.
| rollo wrote: |
| How very strange that you dont believe they should be protected! |
I do believe they should be protected. It's simply the case that equal protection and consideration should be afforded to any adult victim of domestic violence. |
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aarontendo
Joined: 08 Feb 2006
Location: Daegu-ish
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like I got all the hoople heads all riled up! Sometimes nice to peek my head in and stir the pot a bit. If hitting a woman is wrong, I don't wanna be right
In all fairness D.D maybe you did save that girl who was at knifepoint...
...with your stare down!!!  |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Fox : no one is saying violence is good whether male on male or what ever. what we ae talking about is protecting those who are being attacked by someone stronger than themelves.
Furthermore it is not always easy for an adult to escape violence. D.d. mentioned the woman held at knifepoint. Go to an emergency room talk to a woman who has had her face broken by an unexpected punch from an abusive man and tell her how easy it should have been for her to get away. I understand your feelings about violence. I understand that you read a website. There are thousand of websites.
I think you have read some things and think everything that is written by an academic can be applied in the real world. D.D. walks on, the Korean man walks on, the woman continues to be beaten. that is the real world. Protection of the weaker from the stronger is the glue that holds society together at least in the West. It is the social contract!
AArontendo glad that you think like you do. This is why so many many Korean women chase Western men. Well one of the reasons not the BIg reason. |
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