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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
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황색 인종(黃色人種) Mongoloid;the Mongolian race;the yellow race(차별적);【아시아인】Asians |
You are missing the point. Who decided to call them yellow?
They might rather think of themselves as golden, should they become familiar with the knowledge of our history of the word 'yella' used to describe Asiatic people and things of Asia, and given the choice between being 'yella,' or golden I can pretty much bet on what the choice would be.
I've given you untold examples of gems and skies being 황색 yet you throw Western conceptual definitions straight back. I saw these definitions, too. I realise the origins of the definitions like the one above and I certainly know the context in which they are used.
If 금률 is golden rule, then what is 황금률? Yellow-Golden rule? Of course not. 황 is not 'yellow' straight up. It's something more special.
Surely you know very well the context in which we use/used 'yellow,' (or, 'yella') historically at least, when describing 'Asians' and things of Asia?
I think you are purposely negating this, especially the historical attributes. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| The Sea of Japan first appeared as a name for the body of water on European maps hundreds of years ago. |
If Korea had been hospitable to foreign explorers, traders, and cartographers, they would have had more influence in the naming of many things in this region.
But explorers couldn't and didn't access the Korean viewpoint, because this country was hostile to outsiders. So Korea lost out.
You will note that numerous plants, trees, birds and animals in the East Asian region are named "Chinese this" or "Japanese that", even though they can also be found in the Korean peninsula. Its because they European biologists who discovered them were based in those countres- that welcomed foreigners.
Korea is 400 years too late. Now they've finally opened up to the world, they want to go back in time and change everything.
All of the following fauna and flora are also found in korea.
The Chinese Elm Ulmus parvifolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Elm
The Chinese Egret Egretta eulophotes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Egret
The Japanese lily Rhodea japonica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohdea_japonica
The Siberian Chipmunk tamias sibiricus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Chipmunk
Where they appear in Korean university papers, books and publications, you will see that they and many, many other species have been altered by Korean professors and given the prefix "Korean".
Should we also re-name hundreds of living species to please the Koreans?. |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: |
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The Yellow Sea is named after the the color of the silt-laden water discharged from the numerous Chinese rivers that drain into its waters.
The Yellow River is also named after the same thing.
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Early Chinese literature refers to the Yellow River simply as He (河), or "River". The first appearance of the name "Yellow River" (黃河) is in the Book of Han (Chinese: 漢書; pinyin: H�n Shū) written in the Western Han dynasty (206 BC�AD 9). The name "Yellow River" describes the perennial ochre-yellow colour of the muddy water in the lower course of the river. The yellow color comes from loess suspended in the water.
Sometimes the Yellow River is poetically called the "Muddy Flow" (Chinese: 濁流; pinyin: Zhu� Li�). The Chinese expression "when the Yellow River flows clear" is similar to the English expression "when pigs fly." |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_River
The color of the Yellow River is described as ochre-yellow. Ochre in English can mean golden-yellow I suppose.
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| Ochre or Ocher (pronounced /ˈoʊkər/ OH-kər, from the Greek ὠχρός, yellow) is a color, usually described as golden-yellow or light yellow brown. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochre |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for your reasoned responses. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
Your wish to change them is nothing short of colonialism.
There is absolutely no reason for Korea to be calling the 'East Sea' the 'Sea of Japan.'
What would Canadians think of the North Atlantic at Newfoundland becoming "The USA Sea"?
I don't think they'd like it. |
The name "East Sea" is not suitable as an international geographic name, because it could refer to various places including the neighbouring East China Sea, and used as compound words such as the East Sea Fleet and the East Sea Bridge. Much of this argument is based on translations of local names into English. Potential confusions are the Chinese local name for the East China Sea, Dōng Hǎi (东海), which can be translated as "East Sea", the Vietnamese local language name for the South China Sea, "Bien Dong", which can be translated as "East Sea",[21] or the Baltic Sea which in many European languages is called the equivalent of "East Sea". Additionally, the Timor Sea is called Laut Timor in Indonesian, basically meaning the East Sea, as Timor is a variation on the word for East, Timur.
Just as a side note, North Korea called the Sea of Japan the "East Sea of Korea." The fact that the Sea of Japan is a marginal sea, it should be named for the marginal feature, which is Japan. After all, Japan separates the Sea from the rest of the Pacific. Maybe Korea should be screaming to rename the Pacific Ocean the "East Ocean."
The United Nations confirmed its adoption of "Sea of Japan" in its official documents in March 2004, but also stated that "the practice of the UN Secretariat is to use, in the absence of an internationally agreed standard, the most widespread and generally recognized denomination.
So, tough titty Korea. The world DOESN'T revolve around you.
The USA Sea argument, by the way is pretty lame. There already is a body of water called "The Gulf of Mexico." I don't hear ANY cries from the United States to change the name, even though the US has more land in contact with that body of water. The Gulf of Mexico is a remnant of Mexican/Spanish colonialism. Perhaps we should change that?
Koreans in this issue, are demonstrating a great international immaturity, much like the fiction perpetuated about the mad-cow infected American beef. Despite their export-oriented economy, Korean arrogance and internationally ignorant attitudes haven't changed much since the days of the Hermit Kingdom. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Ilsanman wrote: |
There is no east and west in this world. The world is round. |
Which is why I think we should go back to calling the far east "The Orient". |
The word oriental means east. As occidental means west.. so we're back to square one. lol.
The Orient sounds a lot better though.. more "exotic." |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
| You are missing the point. Who decided to call them yellow? |
Who decided to call me white?
WHO CARES? This debate is kind of silly because we're talking about hundreds of years of historical convention. We can't or shouldn't be going back trying to correct all of the historical naming conventions just for the sake of political correctness. There's history there. While I'm sure we all regret the horrible crap through which everyone's peoples have had to suffer throughout history, we can't change history. Changing a name doesn't change the past.
It's interesting how so-called "Native Americans" still call themselves Indians. The Indians aren't offended about being called Indian, it's always some white, liberal apologist trying to save the damned world. Orientals weren't the ones who pressed for the name change to "Asians."
Here is an except from a little essay from an Oriental artwork gallery's website:
---
Gary's random little facts about China:
Is "Oriental" politically correct?
Everyone is going to hate me for this, but here is the truth:
Some people who currently prefer to call themselves "Asian-Americans" woke up one morning and decided that "Oriental" is now a word to be used only for Oriental rugs, Oriental art and lamps, or any other inanimate object from Eastern Asia.
When I was teaching English in China, many of my students would refer to themselves as "Oriental", and I would correct them and say, It's better to say that you are Asian or Chinese rather than Oriental, but I was at a loss as to explain why.
My Chinese students were very smart, and came back at me with the fact that being from Asia was too broad a term, and asked if Persians and Saudi Arabians should also refer to themselves as "Asian".
I then had to make excuses for my geographically-challenged fellow Americans* who had long ago replaced the correct term of "Oriental" (meaning the bio-geographic region including southern Asia and the Malay Archipelago as far as the Philippines, Borneo and Java), and replaced it with "Asian" which in truth encompasses half the world's population - many of whom do not consider themselves to be of the same race as those from the Orient.
(For those Americans reading this and who've slept through their high school geography class: It's true, the whole Middle East, and half of Russia are located in the Asian continent)
But I admit I am not helping the problem. You see, almost half the people that find our website did so while searching for "Asian art" and I have done a lot to promote our business as "Purveyors of Asian art". So you can blame me too.
To truly be an Asian art gallery, we would have to offer artwork from beyond the Orient, from places like India, Persia (Iran), most Arab nations, and Russia.
Notes:
There are a lot of things that present problems in the English language.
Usually these problems are thanks to mistakes of the past.
That's why we have to say, "He's an Indian from India" versus "He's a Native-American Indian" (Thanks to Mr. Columbus).
Things to learn:
Do not refer to a Persian (Iranian) as Arab.
If you refer to an Arab-American as being Asian, they will look at you funny and possibly be offended.
If you refer to a person from India as Asian, you will mildly amuse them.
If you refer to a Russian as being Asian, they will pour borsch on you (my ex-wife is Russian, so I know this to be true from experience).
Using "Asian" to refer to a person from Singapore is okay, but they will later, as if by accident, mention that they are in fact from the most civilized country in Asia.
*We citizens of the USA call ourselves "Americans" which seems a bit arrogant to our neighbors who reside on the continents of North and South America. Keep in mind, Canadians and Mexicans are also from North America, but refer to themselves in more correct geographic terms.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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About Us
Who We Are
We are a group of private individuals ranging from Students to Professionals from various parts of the world concerned about the rising nationalism in South Korea and how it is being abused by the South Korean government to baselessly attack anything and everything Japanese in order to distract from it's own faults. We are speaking up for what we believe in because we believe it is the right thing to do.
Who We Aren't
We are not Japanese nor are we in any way associated with the Japanese government, or any other group, public or private, that stands to gain or lose in any way by the publishing of this web site. We do not have anything against or hate Korea or Koreans. However find it rather sad that we have to explicitly say so because so many young Koreans today place their entire sense of self-pride on Korea's image to the point that for fear of our lives and the lives of our family we have to place such a disclaimer on this webpage. |
http://www.saveseaofjapan.com/english/index.html[/quote]
Oh please! That has to be the biggest load of tripe. I can't believe anyone would believe something like that. What, are Korean killing teams going to book flights to all corners of the globe to find these people?
It's obviously a pro-Japanese website made by a bunch of Japanese people or foreigners living in Japan. Why else would they care? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Sea of Japan first appeared as a name for the body of water on European maps hundreds of years ago. |
If Korea had been hospitable to foreign explorers, traders, and cartographers, they would have had more influence in the naming of many things in this region.
But explorers couldn't and didn't access the Korean viewpoint, because this country was hostile to outsiders. So Korea lost out.
You will note that numerous plants, trees, birds and animals in the East Asian region are named "Chinese this" or "Japanese that", even though they can also be found in the Korean peninsula. Its because they European biologists who discovered them were based in those countres- that welcomed foreigners.
Korea is 400 years too late. Now they've finally opened up to the world, they want to go back in time and change everything.
i] |
I've asked you before not to post personal opinion as fact.
No Japan and China were NOT welcoming towards European biologists ( and certainly not 400 years ago). Japan in particular was very closed towards foreigners. It wasn't until 1853 that Perry forced Japan to be more open. And just prior to WWI and II there weren't many Europeans in Japan. China only became more welcoming when they needed our help against Japan.
For most of those 400 years both Japan and China were closed to foreigners...apart from a few traders. It took force to open them.
The reason that these animals are called either Japanese or Chinese is that both countries were much better known to foreigners at the time. Korea on the other hand was not much more than a vassal state much of that time to China, or Japan or (later) Russia. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Oh please! That has to be the biggest load of tripe. I can't believe anyone would believe something like that. What, are Korean killing teams going to book flights to all corners of the globe to find these people?
It's obviously a pro-Japanese website made by a bunch of Japanese people or foreigners living in Japan. Why else would they care? |
I don't live in Japan. I'm not Japanese. I agree with the site 100%.
The following statement (From the site): "...so many young Koreans today place their entire sense of self-pride on Korea's image to the point that for fear of our lives and the lives of our family we have to place such a disclaimer on this webpage."
Regarding their security concerns, I can't believe that you don't believe "something like that."
After all the Radio Free North Korea guys received death threats from SOUTH Koreans on the far left.
http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/rsf-concerned-at-death-threats-to-staff-of-radio-free-north-korea
How about the Korean death threats launched against the writer of Hetalia (and that's just anime!!)
http://animeblips.dailyradar.com/story/korean_death_threats_made_against_hetalia_author/
How about the death threats received by American Apolo Ohno after the speed skating controversy at the 2002 Olympics? He received thousands of death threats. THe US speed skating team was forced to withdrawal from the 2003 World Speed Skating Championships (held in Korea) due to death threats.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IG10Dg02.html (toward the middle of the article.
The fact that Koreans would make death threats against Ohno because they were mad about the legitimate disqualification of Kim Dong-Sung makes the Sea of Japan guys justified in feeling some concern. Many Koreans have a long history of threatened violence when they feel offended by this or that. I wish the Koreans would adopt some of the Japanese reserve and classiness. Instead, they tend to throw bricks and molotov cocktails or have massive protests over just about anything that offends their obviously fragile egos.
How about Brigitte Bardot and her 7000(!) death threats when she criticized Koreans for eating dog meat. Bardot angered some South Koreans in 2001 when she said she planned to distribute protest pictures depicting the torture of dogs before the 2002 World Cup soccer finals.
I can go on and on about death threats. Many Koreans are hypersensitive, irrationally prideful and suffer from inferiority complexes of massive proportions. The Sea of Japan issue is incendiary enough that I would expect death threats towards a pro-Sea of Japan website's creators.
I do actually like Korea and Koreans. Individually, I find Koreans to fit the warm and caring stereotype, for the most part. But the national inferiority complex is very annoying. If Americans had riots every time someone "offended" us, we'd be in a constant state of protest. Instead, Americans (and Japanese) don't get especially hung up on protecting our figurative "manhood." |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Oh please! That has to be the biggest load of tripe. I can't believe anyone would believe something like that. What, are Korean killing teams going to book flights to all corners of the globe to find these people?
It's obviously a pro-Japanese website made by a bunch of Japanese people or foreigners living in Japan. Why else would they care? |
I don't live in Japan. I'm not Japanese. I agree with the site 100%.
The following statement (From the site): "...so many young Koreans today place their entire sense of self-pride on Korea's image to the point that for fear of our lives and the lives of our family we have to place such a disclaimer on this webpage."
Regarding their security concerns, I can't believe that you don't believe "something like that."
After all the Radio Free North Korea guys received death threats from SOUTH Koreans on the far left.
http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/rsf-concerned-at-death-threats-to-staff-of-radio-free-north-korea
How about the Korean death threats launched against the writer of Hetalia (and that's just anime!!)
http://animeblips.dailyradar.com/story/korean_death_threats_made_against_hetalia_author/
How about the death threats received by American Apolo Ohno after the speed skating controversy at the 2002 Olympics? He received thousands of death threats. THe US speed skating team was forced to withdrawal from the 2003 World Speed Skating Championships (held in Korea) due to death threats.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/IG10Dg02.html (toward the middle of the article.
The fact that Koreans would make death threats against Ohno because they were mad about the legitimate disqualification of Kim Dong-Sung makes the Sea of Japan guys justified in feeling some concern. Many Koreans have a long history of threatened violence when they feel offended by this or that. I wish the Koreans would adopt some of the Japanese reserve and classiness. Instead, they tend to throw bricks and molotov cocktails or have massive protests over just about anything that offends their obviously fragile egos.
How about Brigitte Bardot and her 7000(!) death threats when she criticized Koreans for eating dog meat. Bardot angered some South Koreans in 2001 when she said she planned to distribute protest pictures depicting the torture of dogs before the 2002 World Cup soccer finals.
I can go on and on about death threats. Many Koreans are hypersensitive, irrationally prideful and suffer from inferiority complexes of massive proportions. The Sea of Japan issue is incendiary enough that I would expect death threats towards a pro-Sea of Japan website's creators.
I do actually like Korea and Koreans. Individually, I find Koreans to fit the warm and caring stereotype, for the most part. But the national inferiority complex is very annoying. If Americans had riots every time someone "offended" us, we'd be in a constant state of protest. Instead, Americans (and Japanese) don't get especially hung up on protecting our figurative "manhood." |
A bunch of silly netiziens does not a legitimate threat make. Can you find me ONE instance where these type of death threats were carried out?
As for the site, if they were so worried about it, why stir up trouble for themselves in the first place? As far as I am concerned, if they don't have the courage of their convictions then they can't be taken seriously. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| if they don't have the courage of their convictions then they can't be taken seriously. |
So in your book, hate speech is not a crime, and its acceptable for millions of people to hold racist attitudes, just so long as they don't actually kill someone? |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
A bunch of silly netiziens does not a legitimate threat make. Can you find me ONE instance where these type of death threats were carried out?
As for the site, if they were so worried about it, why stir up trouble for themselves in the first place? As far as I am concerned, if they don't have the courage of their convictions then they can't be taken seriously. |
It isn't really about having courage. It's simply about not becoming a target. Regardless of the legitimacy or actual danger of the threats, the fact is that one would be foolish to invite threats. As for as not stirring up trouble, they aren't necessarily trying to stir up trouble, they are simply trying to provide a rational counterpoint to the East Sea hotheads.
The Koreans have been stirring up the trouble with their massive letter writing campaigns, protests and complaining. Google even caved in the debate in response to a rabid campaign by Koreans to encourage Google to rename the sea on their maps. Interesting thing though is that Japan has more coastline in contact with the Sea of Japan that both Koreas. Russia could just as easily demand it be the South Sea. 99% of the world knows the water as the Sea of Japan.. Korea needs to get over it. Perhaps they should spend more time rooting out corruption within their own ranks before investing capital in a vanity debate.
Here's a link to the story about Google's East Sea/Sea of Japan capitulation:
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=58
Groups like VANK (Voluntary Agency Network of Korea) have engaged in what amounts to cyber terrorism against groups that "distort" the "facts" about Korea. VANK's efforts to pressure various organizations to use Korean rather than Japanese names for individuals and geographic locations, though sometimes successful, have not necessarily earned them recognition of the correctness of their positions. For instance, an About.com spokesman, relating his company's decision to use the name "East Sea" to refer to the body of water, stated that they chose to use the name "not necessarily because it agreed with the South Korean geography activists but because the e-mail bombardment was so annoying."
In 2008, after Mao Asada of Japan won a come-from-behind victory against Kim Yu-Na in a figure skating GP final, there was a denial of service attack on 2channel. 2channel users insisted that the attack was actually originated by VANK. Regardless of who did the DoS attack, someone did it, and it was in response to a stupid speed skating race!
Perhaps they (the S of Jap website people) might be acting a little on the dramatic side, being concerned about the physical danger of attracting the ire of Koreans, but they are justified given groups like VANK's propensity for harassment, and even computer viruses and DoS attacks.
The screwy thing is that VANK is actually supported financially by the government of Korea, initially they have an 80 Million Won per year budget, although now the budget is approximately 50 Million Won per year. Here's a link to a story about VANK's "successful" "correction" of National Geographic using the Sea of Japan..
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200106/200106180181.html
With groups like VANK and their aggressive internet tactics against anyone that slights Korea's delicate image not to mention the large masses of irrational protesters, it makes sense for a small group like the Sea of Japan website people to be vigilant.
While it's perfectly fair to criticize the Sea of Japan proponents, the near-hysterical and childish crybabyism of Korea certainly deserves comment. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| the near-hysterical and childish crybabyism of Korea certainly deserves comment. |
The moment a Korean leaves this country they come up against the fact that very few people in the rest of the world know or care about their country.
Whos fault is that, though? Koreans have been the hermit kingdom for millenia- going to great lengths to keep their country a secret to the rest of the world. Suddenly in the 21st century they open up overnight and expect everyone to know all about them?
But in many cases this ignorance benefits them. Korea is a blank slate, and they can write anything on it uncontested. By simply slipping a few won to media producers, you get programmes like "Hip korea" espousing Korea as the cultural and fashion epicentre of Asia. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Cheonmunka wrote: |
In China is the West Sea known as the Yellow Sea?
Anyone with knowledge of Chinese writing please tell.
Perhaps the Chinese call it something else?
In the Korean dictionary 서해 is also entered as, 황해, 'Yellow' Sea.
But, this is so obviously a Western term.
People shouldn't be up in arms about an indigenous people calling their own seas and lands whatever they wish. Your wish to change them is nothing short of colonialism.
There is absolutely no reason for Korea to be calling the 'East Sea' the 'Sea of Japan.'
What would Canadians think of the North Atlantic at Newfoundland becoming "The USA Sea"?
I don't think they'd like it. |
Koreans are just too sensitive and emotional about this.
If there was no Japan, there would be no sea. It would be one big ocean called the Pacific.
And when Korea stops calling America "Beautiful Land" and Germany "Again Sun" then they will be in a better position to tell other countries what to call geographic landmarks in their own respective native tongues.
End of story. |
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