Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Kikomom]

The biggest problem I see Bass, is the fricking turnover rate of teachers. Constant newbies coming and going, some leaving for good, others coming back in a month or so. Keeping track of your membership sounds like a logistical nightmare to me. Frankly, some of them will never even hear of you.

But for a highly organized group to take on that challenge, I can see the need for it--ATEK or you guys. A support system of any kind is always a benefit to everyone involved.

[bassexpander]

I'm really just interested in creating some discussion on this matter.

Personally, I'd like to see a group led by visa holders who have a vested interest in this country, and have a lot of experience living/working here. At the the same time, I would like to see that group offer advance the rights of E-2's without burning/blaming F-2's in the process.

I've seen more division and anger brought about thusfar than I've seen progress in any one direction.

How can that be helpful?

[sinsanri]

Well, you would have to do a lot of leg work to get to that point or recruit like minded people to help you.

I really do not see how you can 'advance' E2 visa rights. Owning one's visa is not good for the industry and I happen to agree with the Korean regulations on that matter.

I would not join any association and would not want my employment tied to membership with them nor would I want them interfering in any regulations already in place. I feel the Koreans have a very good system which allows a person to upgrade if they decide this is where they should be.

Also to make it so everyone must have a tesol, toefl or BED or teacher's diploma is unfair to those who pursued their interests and came upon teaching later in life. We lose too many good teachers that way and gain few to replace them.

As a believer in Jesus how would you meet my needs or other believer's needs given the fact that we cannot walk in the secular world's counsel? Our goals our different than yours and our priorities are very different.

how would you solve such issues as those

[Ruraljuror]

[bassexpander]

[cruisemonkey]

I've been silent long enough (some will say "not so") on this issue. The Ks are not stupid and they're laughing at you - divide and conquer.

Until you can change K law, all is doomed to failure. In the mean time, each to his/her own.

[bassexpander]

[anynag]

Bass, harken back to about a year and a half ago when this same topic was brought up.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=102186&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
A couple of groups evolved and both faded. A few members (F visa holders no less) of one of those groups got behind what eventually became known as ATEK.

[TheChickenLover]

I'm going to start one, but with a different base at the beginning.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=154319

[bassexpander]

[Ruraljuror]

That is rather paranoid, and a complete misrepresentation of the concerns of those of us who oppose ATEK.

We did not oppose ATEK because ATEK wanted to grant E-2's power similar to F visas, thus reducing our competitive advantage in the job market. We fully support E-2's and would welcome E-2 visas having the exact same powers and benefits as a F series visa. There are plenty of jobs out there for everyone.

We opposed ATEK because we felt that the most likely response of E-2's claiming that they are an oppressed minority whose human rights are being violated in relation to F visa holders would be an angry response from the Korean government in which everyone, E and F visas, lose. We felt that Immigration wasn't going to roll back the recent instituted changes to the E-2 visa, and was much more likely to make the F visa identical to an E-2 visa as a way to stop "discriminating" against E-2s. We felt that stirring up this particular hornet's nest was unwise and wasn't properly thought out and that the 3 individuals who claimed to represent 20,000 teachers had no mandate to do so.

Believe me, we are not scared of E-2 empowerment, we support the plight of our brothers and sisters in the struggle of ESL. We are anti-ATEK but we will never, ever, be anti-E2.

[bassexpander]

Say want you want... each side can sugar-coat their views however they see fit.

As I see it, I see two groups fighting over the right to earn more money or trying to protect their right to earn it.

By the way, I'm not taking a side in the ATEK thing, other than to say that I think something new would be welcomed.



Now, back on topic....

[Mr. Pink]

I can't think of a teacher's organization that would be effective until the Korean government puts more professional restrictions on who can come into Korea and teach.

Some of the posters on this board who complain about stuff resemble special needs students rather than actual teachers. Do you really think those who are professional and qualified to be teaching in Korea would want to be represented by the same "union" that defends the "retards"?

[Ruraljuror]

Man I just dropped some science on you, and you just totally dismissed everything I said. Kind of takes the wind out of my sails. Nothing like having your well-reasoned point ignored with a "Say what you want..."

What I wrote was the truth. There is no war between E-2s and F-2s. I know many people Es and Fs and I've never heard anyone even talk about this issue before. It's not on anyone's radar. ATEK tried to make an issue out of it to get publicity and members (keep in mind this was back when they were charging membership dues) but it didn't work. Cooler heads prevailed, and now ATEK has only 400 members out the 20,000 they seek to represent.

Now I asked you back in the first page, why do you think an organization is necessary and what do you see it doing and I still don't really know. I'm pretty ambivalent towards the idea due to ATEK, but if you can convince me I'd be happy to support it. Is this going to be a lobbying group, seeking to advance teacher issues on a macro level, or is this going to be a support group helping teachers on a micro level?

If it is a political/lobbying group, how are you going to influence bureacrats/legislative bodies? This is definitely something that you need experience with before you can get started and the language barrier would require using gyopos. BUT...anyone who has experience as a lobbyist is probably not going to come to Korea as an ESL teacher. Lobbyists make awful good money. Also, and this is key, anyone who has been here for awhile and has learned how Korea operates knows there is really only one way to get things done on a political level. You will never convince anyone to do anything for you based merely on the strength of your argument. It requires several months of wooing. Dinners, drinks, Noraebangs, anmas, gifts, and bags of money. Anyone who has been here and knows this country knows that this is how things work, so I'm sure you know this too. This organization is going to have to be VERY well-funded to enact changes on the macro level.

As for the micro level...do you really want to get involved in the minutiae of dealing with teacher complaints? If a teacher claims that he was fired for no reason, are you going to send someone out to investigate the claim? The investigator will arrive and the boss will say the person was fired because he was losing students and was later several times over the course of the last few months. Is the investigator going to go back and investigate whether or not the teacher was late? Is he going to contact the parents of the children who left the hagwon and determine whether or not they left due to the teacher's poor performance? What if he discovers that the teacher was not late 10 times like the boss claims, but he was in fact late 5 times...and not all of the students who left the hagwon left because of his performance, but there actually were a couple students who did. What will be the official response of your organization? Will you go to bat for the teacher? If so, how? If it is just going to be contacting the labor board on his behalf...why does he need your organization's help? Can't he do that on his own?

Since you are asking for 1 million of my hard-earned money, is it out of line to ask how you would seek to spend it? Or is this message just going to get another "Say what you want" brush off?

[cruisemonkey]