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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| That's just being mentally and morally lazy. |
Are you calling me mentally and morally lazy? |
I said it's mentally and morally lazy to fail to distinguish between taking a second look at something like this, and simply dimissing it out of hand, without even doing a bit of original research on the issue yourself. If you want to own that, knock yourself out. |
But I'm not dismissing it out of hand, you're just condescending to people who challenge your point. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| That's just being mentally and morally lazy. |
Are you calling me mentally and morally lazy? |
I said it's mentally and morally lazy to fail to distinguish between taking a second look at something like this, and simply dimissing it out of hand, without even doing a bit of original research on the issue yourself. If you want to own that, knock yourself out. |
That's not what you said the first time. You said anyone who would object to adding Lithium is callous, selfish, etc, etc.
Care to change your answer? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
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When it comes to a drug company wanting to sell some new medication, even in low dosages such as those being suggested for lithium in the water supply, they are required by the FDA to undertake extensive research that often costs in excess of $100 million even though the prescriptions are given on an individual basis and monitored by the attending licensed physician, are completely voluntary, and can be ended if there are negative effects or side effects.
But, when someone gets the whim to medicate the entire population, it is expected for everyone to jump on the bandwagon when NO research has been done to determine the effects that this drug may have on the population that is intended to be medicated.
The effects of lithium have NOT been studied according to any reasonable scientific standard. It would require more study than the usual drug because the effects must be studied not only on a healthy control group and sick individuals in need of treatment, but every possible group of individuals with other medical conditions and other medical treatments must be studied to determine that effects that lithium will have when administered in conjunction with other medical conditions and treatments.
This is the perfect example of a chaos theory problem and the unintended effects that will derive from the ignorance of those whose completely unscientific adoption of such an idiotic plan when they have not studied any of the millions of possible adverse effects is beyond the limits of what any reasonably educated individual would consider to be a proper application of public health policy even by an activist, but still humanitarian in intent, socialistic state.
******
Why not add a little CO2 to the air while we're at it. More CO2 will make plants grow better and so farmers will be able to grow more food and we can reduce world hunger. Gee, that would save hundreds of people from starvation.
Sounds the same.
This experiment, of course, has proven to have a few unfortunate side effects.
Now, lets do the same with lithium without doing any serious studies.
*******
But then, it still begs the question of why do it at all. If it's such a good idea, why not start with bottled water with lithium added. All those other additives that were mentioned (iodine, folic acid, niacin, iron, vitamins D, C, B etc., calcium, etc.) have been added to individual products all of which are also available in an unadulterated form if the consumer wishes, chooses, or for medical reasons, needs to avoid them.
Finally, no one is rushing anymore to increase floridation of public water supplies in the US. You can expect to see its decline over the next decade and total elimination in 20 years. There is no longer any justification as it has been shown that individuals can get the same benefit from topical application through the use of flouridated toothpaste, mouthwash and dental treatments all added topically so as to avoid the now documented deleterious effects of actual injestion of excessive amounts of flouride.
One reason for the massive increase in the consumption of bottled water and for home treatment systems for potable water has been to satisfy the desire of the general public to avoid such excessive intake of flouride.
The public is actually showing some wisdom in the movement toward a preference for unadulterated natural and whole foods. This effort to stuff another government lie down the throats of the public, this time literally, flies in the face of such trends. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe we should introduce mandatory bedtimes with the shades pulled down, or require sunglasses, or just ban sunshine in the zones of excessive shunshine ... and, of course, a little lithium in their water in Greenland ...
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Constant sun -- too much of a good thing?
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Delicious Digg Facebook Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Yahoo! Bookmarks Print Fri May 8, 10:59 am ET
LONDON (Reuters) � Too much sunlight in places like Greenland where long summer days often cause insomnia appears more likely to drive a person to suicide, Swedish researchers said Friday.
Despite a belief that suicides tend to rise in late autumn and early winter months because of darkness, the new findings suggest that places where constant sunlight in summer seasons is a fact of life may be just as dangerous.
"During the long periods of constant light, it is crucial to keep some circadian rhythm to get enough sleep and sustain mental health," Karin Sparring Bjorksten of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden and colleagues reported in the BioMed Central journal BMC Psychiatry.
According to the World Health Organization, 877,000 people worldwide kill themselves each year. For every suicide death, anywhere from 10 to 40 attempts are made, the U.N. agency estimates.
Scientists have previously linked sleep disturbances to increased suicidal risk in people with psychiatric disorders and in adolescents but it is unclear whether the association also exists in the general population.
The Swedish team studied the seasonal variation of suicides in all of Greenland from 1968 to 2002 and found a cluster of suicides in the summer months.
This seasonal effect was especially pronounced in the north of the country -- an area where the sun doesn't set between the end of April and the end of August.
"We found that suicides were almost exclusively violent and increased during periods of constant day," Bjorksten said in a statement.
"In the north of the country, 82 percent of the suicides occurred during the daylight months."
Most of the suicides involved young men and were violent -- such as shooting, hanging and jumping from high places. These kinds of deaths accounted for nearly all, about 95 percent, of the suicides.
The researchers speculated that light-generated imbalances in serotonin -- the brain chemical linked to mood --may lead to increased impulsiveness that in combination with a lack of sleep drives people to kill themselves.
"Light is just one of the many factors in the complex tragedy of suicide, but this study shows that there is a possible relationship between the two," Bjorksten said.
(Reporting by Michael Kahn; Editing by Maggie Fox) |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| But I'm not dismissing it out of hand, you're just condescending to people who challenge your point. |
You haven't offered anything to challenge it with. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| When it comes to a drug company wanting to sell some new medication, even in low dosages such as those being suggested for lithium in the water supply, they are required by the FDA to undertake extensive research that often costs in excess of $100 million even though the prescriptions are given on an individual basis and monitored by the attending licensed physician, are completely voluntary, and can be ended if there are negative effects or side effects. |
True.
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| But, when someone gets the whim to medicate the entire population, it is expected for everyone to jump on the bandwagon when NO research has been done to determine the effects that this drug may have on the population that is intended to be medicated. |
I never said that. I never said, "let's drop the stuff in the water tomorrow." I SAID this deserves a further, more in-depth look and that its unconscionable to simply move from preconceived notions to foregone conclusions and dismiss it out of hand at the outset.
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| The effects of lithium have NOT been studied according to any reasonable scientific standard. It would require more study than the usual drug because the effects must be studied not only on a healthy control group and sick individuals in need of treatment, but every possible group of individuals with other medical conditions and other medical treatments must be studied to determine that effects that lithium will have when administered in conjunction with other medical conditions and treatments. |
Actually a tremendous amount of research has been done on lithium because nobody is sure why prescription-level doses of lithium are effective in treating certain mental disorders. Lithium was, in fact, the FIRST chemical that when administered in drug form was found to help treat mental disorders, and it spawned an immense amount of research into developing similar drugs.
A lot is already known about the effects of lithium when it is administered as a drug. For example, its dangerous to pregnant women. But again, we are not talking about drugging the entire population with prescription-level doses of lithium....we're talking about the effects of extremely low-levels of lithium on the general population over a long period of time. 250 times lower than prescription doses. And the results seem to be very positive, in terms of reducing suicides.
| Quote: |
| This is the perfect example of a chaos theory problem and the unintended effects that will derive from the ignorance of those whose completely unscientific adoption of such an idiotic plan when they have not studied any of the millions of possible adverse effects is beyond the limits of what any reasonably educated individual would consider to be a proper application of public health policy even by an activist, but still humanitarian in intent, socialistic state. |
I think you need to rewrite this sentence to make it clear what you mean. To me, it's a perfect example of confused thinking and an inability to discuss or address the issue clearly.
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Why not add a little CO2 to the air while we're at it. More CO2 will make plants grow better and so farmers will be able to grow more food and we can reduce world hunger. Gee, that would save hundreds of people from starvation.
Sounds the same.
This experiment, of course, has proven to have a few unfortunate side effects.
Now, lets do the same with lithium without doing any serious studies.
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Nobody on this thread so far said "lets do some serious studies", with the exception of rollo, to his credit. They all said, "we can't do this AT ALL." Simple NYMBY syndrome.
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| But then, it still begs the question of why do it at all. If it's such a good idea, why not start with bottled water with lithium added. |
That's a great idea. Bottled water, of course, is a scam by companies to sell plastic to the naive, and I think bottled water is bad for the environment because of all those plastic bottles produced, consumed, and thrown out, but I see your point.
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| All those other additives that were mentioned (iodine, folic acid, niacin, iron, vitamins D, C, B etc., calcium, etc.) have been added to individual products all of which are also available in an unadulterated form if the consumer wishes, chooses, or for medical reasons, needs to avoid them. |
Absolutely. One might make the argument, however, that individuals who are borderline suicidal might benefit from lithium in drinking water, whether or not they want to choose to have it. To prevent suicide. Infants and children are provided with food additives in their food because its good for them and prevents disease, whether or not the kids want to eat nutritious food or understand the concept of nutritious food. Maybe lithium should be considered as a food additive rather than a drinking water additive. That's something that deserves a look.
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| Finally, no one is rushing anymore to increase floridation of public water supplies in the US. You can expect to see its decline over the next decade and total elimination in 20 years. There is no longer any justification as it has been shown that individuals can get the same benefit from topical application through the use of flouridated toothpaste, mouthwash and dental treatments all added topically so as to avoid the now documented deleterious effects of actual injestion of excessive amounts of flouride. |
Maybe, I don't know. Most European nations don't fluoridate their water because the public health authorities feel the population gets enough fluoride through their toothpaste...the US dentists association doesn't feel this is sufficient for the US because of the disparity in income levels in the US. I don't know if their argument is valid or not, that's just what they've said.
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| The public is actually showing some wisdom in the movement toward a preference for unadulterated natural and whole foods. This effort to stuff another government lie down the throats of the public, this time literally, flies in the face of such trends. |
I don't know here if you are talking about fluoride or lithium. But in fact the reason why the public is showing a preference for unadulterated natural and whole foods is because they are becoming better educated about the science of food chemistry and health, and they are better able to distinguish unnecessary and harmful additives from things that are good for them. Most people, for example, exhibit a preference for whole wheat bread that is less processed, but they have no objection to adding niacin or other vitamins to that same flour. Or, using iodized (read: less natural) salt in commercial bread recipes.
Lithium is an element. A common, naturally-occurring element like sodium, calcium, iron, selenium, magnesium, zinc, or potassium. And it has the potential to save lives, when added to the drinking water supply at low, safe levels. Why on earth would it not deserve further research? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| But I'm not dismissing it out of hand, you're just condescending to people who challenge your point. |
You haven't offered anything to challenge it with. |
Why should your argument be given the benefit of the doubt?
The status quo in nature is that water normally has very low amounts of lithium, and you say we should up that dosage by some degree.
I'm not convinced its a good idea. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The status quo in nature is that water normally has very low amounts of lithium, and you say we should up that dosage by some degree. |
See? You're not even looking at what has been posted on this thread earlier, let alone doing any research on the issue to back your opinions or even check them.
First of all, levels of lithium in groundwater vary from place to place, depending on geology and geochemistry. There are lots of places in the world where "natural" levels of elements and metals are too high to be safe for human consumption. In my hometown, the naturally-occuring levels of arsenic are too high to be safe to drink from many drilled wells. So in fact, it's not at all certain that natural levels of lithium in groundwater and drinking water are the same worldwide. Presumably, there are other populated areas of the world where lithium levels are naturally just as high. It is worth looking into further.
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| I'm not convinced its a good idea. |
Here is where you start to justify the description of being intellectually lazy. Why. do. you. think. its. a bad. idea.  |
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