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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
But you ruined it with an irrelevant qualification. This thread deals, ultimately, with a single issue. It carries multiple implications. But it remains a single, narrow issue nonetheless: Nancy Pelosi's complicity in and support for W. Bush administration-era torture.
And the way I see it, she is clearly unfit to call for, let alone hold and supervise, investigations into the problem.
We need someone with clean hands, let alone avoiding some hysterical woman on a hyperpolitical witchhunt, to do this. |
Okay, I agree. The less power for Pelosi, the better for everyone. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Good. Because I have become convinced recently that we ought to initiate legal inquiries and consider prosecuting those in the W. Bush administration who may have violated American laws re: the torture issue.
I just want a clear-headed person, a person who will take no pleasure in the investigation, and who will take no pleasure in announcing his or her findings, a non-spiteful person, to run it.
Only in America do we find so many pontificating, sermonizing prosecutors. Life has become like a Starsky-and-Hutch episode over here... |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Only in America do we find so many pontificating, sermonizing prosecutors. Life has become like a Starsky-and-Hutch episode over here... |
I think that is about the same everywhere. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Now she accuses the CIA of lying.
I saw it live. This vile person needs to step down. Bad for morale.
I don't even think that's what she meant to say!
She just got so caught up in her hate-mongering, calling out the torches and pitchforks, that she lost her head.
Remember, I'm no Bush fan. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher observed:
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CIA -- and this is Leon Panetta's CIA; he is a Clinton-era Democrat; Barack Obama appointed him, and the Senate confirmed him -- is not being dishonest, Mises. Besides CIA witnesses, other Congressmen attended those briefings with her.
This is an old game in Washington, I am afraid. Don't be left holding the bag. I strongly disagree with the way she is playing it, too. Holier-than-thou. This is exactly why CIA documents Congressional briefings in memoranda. |
B-I-N-G-O, bruddah but, alas, many posters here aren't clued into to this reality or don't want to confront it because it challenges their agenda.
Pelosi's accusation has exposed her recklessness, which a Speaker of the House should never show in matters of national security. She should resign or be removed. But don't hold your breath waiting for her liberal patsies to file a motion to do just that.
Apparently someone at the White House forgot to get her on board the Bipartisan Soul Train. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 17, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps now this will pave the way for Cindy Sheehan to win the special election to replace Pelosi after she is forced to step down.
She was on Pacifica's Flashpoints this past Friday, and in answer to host Dennis Bernstein's question about whether she believed Nancy Pelosi's shifting stories about her involvement in torture policy, Cindy said:
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| Well, Dennis, you know that I have been pressing this issue for 18 months now. I believe Nancy Pelosi knew about torture early on, but she claims she was "fooled" by the CIA. This means she is either a liar or stupid! I think she's a stupid liar, myself! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Here's a piece of the puzzle that hasn't gotten as much air play as it deserves:
"In the end, [the House Intelligence] Committee will have to determine whether this information is an accurate summary of what actually happened."
"Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened."
Both by Leon Panetta, CIA Director last Friday
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#30815714
According to Senator Graham's notes, 3 of the meetings he was supposed to have been at, according to the CIA, didn't happen when the CIA said they did. In other words, the CIA itself can't stand behind the reports of what is claimed to have happened and the reports aren't to be relied upon according to the CIA itself.
As I've said for a long time, this thing needs to be investigated. If there are people who are legally culpable, they should be punished. Baseless charges against innocent people need to stop, especially if they involve people who have served the country with dedication and integrity. No one should be above the law, but anyone who is innocent should be protected from character assassination. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Baseless charges against innocent people need to stop, especially if they involve people who have served the country with dedication and integrity. |
Well at least those who have been targeted so far have not been those who have served with dedication or integrity. |
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mole
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Act III
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
As I've said for a long time, this thing needs to be investigated. If there are people who are legally culpable, they should be punished. Baseless charges against innocent people need to stop, especially if they involve people who have served the country with dedication and integrity. No one should be above the law, but anyone who is innocent should be protected from character assassination. |
Here,here! Nancy needs to get off her high horse and resign. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Good. Because I have become convinced recently that we ought to initiate legal inquiries and consider prosecuting those in the W. Bush administration who may have violated American laws re: the torture issue.
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Woah. I missed this. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting your ideological guru's thoughts on the matter, Ya-ta Boy. Her opinion and position are, of course, entirely predictable.
________
Mises, that is correct. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that's odd. We've been disagreeing on this for quite a while. And now, when you come around, I've left.
If Hitchens is right and the best words to describe some of these actions are "rape" and "murder", maybe it is best to sweep it under the rug. There still are soldiers in the field, and will be for a long while. Maybe dragging the whole thing into the open would just end up with more dead American soldiers. If Dick Cheney was wandering around Iraq in uniform, and only him. Then maybe.
Here's how the Telegraph reported it a while back:
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America was braced last night for new allegations of torture in Iraq after military officials said that photographs apparently showing US soldiers beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death and having sex with a female PoW were about to be released.
The officials told the US television network NBC that other images showed soldiers "acting inappropriately with a dead body". A videotape, apparently made by US personnel, is said to show Iraqi guards raping young boys. |
http://web.archive.org/web/20060427131713/http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2004%2F05%2F09%2Fwtort09.xml&sSheet=%2Fnews%2F2004%2F05%2F09%2Fixnewstop.html
I'm in the 'for christ sakes' camp now. I can't believe they did that, and I can't believe I have actually come around to the position of letting the perps walk. What a wacky world. |
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Xerxes
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Location: Down a certain (rabbit) hole, apparently
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| According to Senator Graham's notes, 3 of the meetings he was supposed to have been at, according to the CIA, didn't happen when the CIA said they did. In other words, the CIA itself can't stand behind the reports of what is claimed to have happened and the reports aren't to be relied upon according to the CIA itself. |
I read this line of argument in the media too, but what I find strange about this is that those briefings were attended by many, Democrats and Republicans. Even if Pelosi had not known, wouldn�t the leader of the Democrats have been alerted by fellow Dems of such an issue, because it seems pretty major. But, let�s say that what she says is right. That means that
1) She is out of touch with her own party
2) She is willing to leave no out for her fellow Democrats, as long as she�s clean on the issue, pretty bad leadership
A lot of pundits have claimed that Obama is not very experienced in politics, but what he has done with this waterboarding issue and the pictures of torture at Guantanamo Bay pulled at the last minute shows that the man knows how to play hardball. For better or for worse. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: CIA: We Lied to Congress |
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Vindication for Pelosi?
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In May, at a point when congressional Republicans and their amen corner in the media were attempting to defend the Bush-Cheney administration's torture regime, their primary defense was: Pelosi knew.
The spin held that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, as a member of the House Intelligence Committee, had in 2002 been secretly briefed about the use of of harsh interrogation techniques on terror suspects.
Pelosi said the Central Intelligence Agency had failed to inform her about the character and extent of the harsh interrogations.
Pelosi accused the CIA of "misleading the Congress of the United States."
Republican senators screamed.
"It's outrageous that a member of Congress should call a terror-fighter a liar," howled Missouri Senator Kit Bond, the vice chair of the Senate intelligence committee. "It seems the playbook is, blame terror-fighters. We ought to be supporting them."
CIA officials denied lying to Congress and the American people, and that seemed to be that. "Let me be clear: It is not our practice or policy to mislead Congress," said CIA Director Leon Panetta. That is against our laws and values."
But, now, we learn that, in late June, Panetta admitted in secret testimony to Congress that the agency had concealed information and misled lawmakers repeatedly since 2001.
Some of the details of Panetta's testimony are contained in a letter from seven House Democrats to Panetta that was released Wednesday morning.
In the letter, the members (Anna Eshoo of California, Alcee Hastings of Florida, Rush Holt of New Jersey, Jan Schakowsky of Illinois, Adam Smith of Washington, Mike Thompson of California and John Tierney of Massachusetts) wrote: "Recently you testified that you have determined that top CIA officials have concealed significant actions from all members of Congress, and misled members for a number of years from 2001 to this week."
The letter continued: "In light of your testimony, we ask that you publicly correct your statement of May 15, 2009."
Pelosi's critics are claiming that Panetta's admission does not resolve the debate about whether the speaker was lied to in briefings about harsh interrogations.
What does the CIA say?
That's where things seem to get confusing -- but, as we'll see, not too confusing.
Panetta "stands by his May 15 statement," CIA spokesman George Little claimed after the letter from the House members was released.
The problem is that Little also said: "This agency and this director believe it is vital to keep the Congress fully and currently informed. Director Panetta's actions back that up. As the letter from these ... representatives notes, it was the CIA itself that took the initiative to notify the oversight committees."
So, officially, CIA director Panetta stands by his statement that: "It is not our practice or policy to mislead Congress."
But...
The Panetta's spokesman is seemingly rather proud that "it was the CIA itself that took the initiative to notify the oversight committees" that the agency had in the words of the House members "misled members for a number of years from 2001."
Can we reconcile these statements?
Yes.
Panetta, who has only headed the CIA since February of this year says that "it is not our practice or policy to mislead Congress."
But he tells Congress that it was in fact the consistent practice of the CIA to lie to Congress during the Bush-Cheney years.
So what are we left with?
Perhaps a measure of vindication for Pelosi, but the speaker's wrangling with the Republicans is a distraction from the fundamental revelation.
Far more important is Panetta's reported admission that his agency has "concealed significant actions" and "misled members of Congress."
No matter what anyone thinks of Pelosi or waterboarding, there is a clear case for dramatically expanding congressional oversight of the CIA. Of course, more House and Senate members should have access to briefings. But that ought not be the first response to the latest news.
Step one should be to the bottom of exactly what the CIA was lying about.
Did it have anything to do with the case for invading and occupying Iraq? Afghanistan?
CIA defenders will claim that some secrets must be kept. Perhaps. But the Congress and the American people have a right to know the broad outlines of the deception -- and the extent to which it may have warped, and may continue to warp, U.S. policy.
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Please cite your source, Catman. |
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