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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: Obama whitewashes torture debate |
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| WASHINGTON - Defense and military officials tell NBC News that President Obama will seek to delay the release of hundreds of photos which reportedly depict the abuse of prisoners by U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
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According to military officials many of the photos are similar to the infamous prisoner abuse photos out of Abu Ghraib prison, but some of these photos reportedly include mug shots of prisoners who appear to have been badly beaten during their capture or interrogation.
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I'm really starting to wonder how long the far-right can keep telling us that Obama is some sort of flag-burning, anti-American traitor. His position on torture-related issues, at least, are straight out of the Bush/Cheney hymnal.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Hey, America, we're on the right track again!
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| But you do not know what B. Obama has learned in the national-security briefings, On the Other Hand. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| But you do not know what B. Obama has learned in the national-security briefings, On the Other Hand. |
True. But then, the argument he's presenting to the public is that the photos, if released, could put US troops in harm's way. I'm not sure exactly what sort of facts could have been presented in the briefing room to make that argument any more convincing than it was before.
Anyway, my main point in posting this was to express amusement at how Obama's detractors on the right and some of his defenders on the left portray him as some sort of serious left-winger, when, at least on this issue, it's business as usual at the old stand. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...my main point in posting this was to express amusement at how Obama's detractors on the right and some of his defenders on the left portray him as some sort of serious left-winger, when, at least on this issue, it's business as usual at the old stand. |
As far as my own views go, point taken, and you are preaching to the choir on this. The debate features one clich� after another. Here I particularly refer to Republican newsletters and fund-raisers and the puerile, hysterical pitches they make towards me these days. They have completely alienated me from the party.
But I also have a critique of your cynical business-as-usual interpretation here: and that is that other possible interpretations can emerge from this fact-pattern. For one thing, what if B. Obama, a careful, non-dogmatic thinker from all that I have seen, has evaluated the facts and analyses available to him, which is much more than what we see via the media and the internet, On the Other Hand, and arrived at this position independently because he is in fact doing the business of American leadership and national-security well?
Also, I knew that several elements on the left would quickly find themselves disillusioned with the President for his failing their unforgiving ideological purity tests.
C'est la vie, however. And as far as I am concerned, all of this only increases his stock's value in my book, especially with respect to 2012. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| But I also have a critique of your cynical business-as-usual interpretation here: and that is that other possible interpretations can emerge from this fact-pattern. |
Well then, let me give you the objective, de-cynicized version of what I'm trying to say...
For better or worse, Obama's views about transparency on torture issues are substantially the same as Bush and Cheney's views. So, what you think about his approach to these matters is largely going to be determined by what you thought about the previous administration's approach. But one would never know this from the way certain ideologues(including the people who write the newsletters that you reference) frame the discussion. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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There is also the evidence, whatever it is, that both presidents have seen in their briefings when reaching these policy decisions, On the Other Hand.
Guess I have said the same thing three different ways now: I suspect there is more to this story than your "business as usual."
One other interpretation presents itself, too: B. Obama wants to avoid introducing more poison into a divisive polity, where multiple actors exist on both sides of the political spectrum, who will only capitalize, sensationalize, and then thrive on it for weeks if not months, bringing about, ultimately, no good. What possible good could putting such photos in the likes of Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, Keith Olbermann and his friend Rachel's hands possibly accomplish, On the Other Hand? More fuel for their smirking? No thanks. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| "These photos that were requested in this case are not particularly sensational, especially when compared to the painful images that we remember from Abu Ghraib." |
But they're also capable of endangering our troops?
/scratches head |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Hater Depot. If those who I referenced, above, got their hands on the photos, and start spinning them this way and that, and especially after they disseminate their "news analysis" or "documentary films" abroad, they would likely fuel antiAmericanism (again), thus endangering our troops out there.
I doubt that you are really scratching your head inasmuch as snapping your fingers at a missed opportunity...
In any case, this thread speculates re: B. Obama's motives in doing this. Who has any actual evidence that bears on this issue, that shows us what the President and his advisors were really thinking when they decided this? |
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lithium
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| ...my main point in posting this was to express amusement at how Obama's detractors on the right and some of his defenders on the left portray him as some sort of serious left-winger, when, at least on this issue, it's business as usual at the old stand. |
As far as my own views go, point taken, and you are preaching to the choir on this. The debate features one clich� after another. Here I particularly refer to Republican newsletters and fund-raisers and the puerile, hysterical pitches they make towards me these days. They have completely alienated me from the party.
But I also have a critique of your cynical business-as-usual interpretation here: and that is that other possible interpretations can emerge from this fact-pattern. For one thing, what if B. Obama, a careful, non-dogmatic thinker from all that I have seen, has evaluated the facts and analyses available to him, which is much more than what we see via the media and the internet, On the Other Hand, and arrived at this position independently because he is in fact doing the business of American leadership and national-security well?
Also, I knew that several elements on the left would quickly find themselves disillusioned with the President for his failing their unforgiving ideological purity tests.
C'est la vie, however. And as far as I am concerned, all of this only increases his stock's value in my book, especially with respect to 2012. |
Exactly. Nothing Obama does is for America, it is always for him. Believe me, Obama did not do this because he is worried about the reputation of America. He already thinks it is the cause of problems in the world. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Obama whitewashes torture debate |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| WASHINGTON - Defense and military officials tell NBC News that President Obama will seek to delay the release of hundreds of photos which reportedly depict the abuse of prisoners by U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
| Quote: |
According to military officials many of the photos are similar to the infamous prisoner abuse photos out of Abu Ghraib prison, but some of these photos reportedly include mug shots of prisoners who appear to have been badly beaten during their capture or interrogation.
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I'm really starting to wonder how long the far-right can keep telling us that Obama is some sort of flag-burning, anti-American traitor. His position on torture-related issues, at least, are straight out of the Bush/Cheney hymnal.
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I'm not so sure the pics should be released. I don't know what good they will do. Best to go after a few token thugs (maybe the lawyers who wrote the memos though), pass a strong law and be done with it. I'd like more, but the release of those pics might not be smart. Maybe release them in 20 years. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not so sure the pics should be released. I don't know what good they will do. |
Well, assuming that these are the same unreleased photos that Hitchens was talking about a few years back...
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But get ready. It is going to get much worse. The graphic videos and photographs that have so far been shown only to Congress are, I have been persuaded by someone who has seen them, not likely to remain secret for very long. And, if you wonder why formerly gung-ho rightist congressmen like James Inhofe ("I'm outraged more by the outrage") have gone so quiet, it is because they have seen the stuff and you have not. There will probably be a slight difficulty about showing these scenes in prime time, but they will emerge, never fear. We may have to start using blunt words like murder and rape to describe what we see. And one linguistic reform is in any case already much overdue. The silly word "abuse" will have to be dropped. No law or treaty forbids "abuse," but many conventions and statutes, including our own and the ones we have urged other nations to sign, do punish torture�which is what we are talking about here at a bare minimum.
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...then this might have the effect making it near impossible to deny that what took place was in any way within the bounds of human decency.
I remember when the first round of AG photos were released, and some right-wing commentators said that it was irresponsible of the media to publish them, that it would only incite more anti-American violence, and that it would have been better just to publish written descriptions of the abuse. A poster at Slate(I believe) countered that a good chunk of the American public would not get the message that real abuse had taken place, without seeing actual photos of it.
http://tinyurl.com/qld82a
Last edited by On the other hand on Thu May 14, 2009 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I see. The scale of violence in those pictures is so severe that an end to the discussion about if water boarding is appropriate will come.. Interesting. I'm already disgusted at how the torture debate has become partisan, especially given the over-use of the America as a light on the hill story by some on the right.
If 'murder' and 'rape' are the words most appropriate for some of the new pics, then we're in trouble.
I think you'll find this piece interesting:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/14/afghanistan/index.html?source=rss |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Good to see Greenwald's keeping Obama's feet to the coals.
I slightly disgaree with this part...
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Moreover, isn't it rather obvious that Obama's decision to hide this evidence -- certain to be a prominent news story in the Muslim world, and justifiably so -- will itself inflame anti-American sentiment? It's not exactly a compelling advertisement for the virtues of transparency, honesty and open government. What do you think the impact is when we announce to the world: "What we did is so heinous that we're going to suppress the evidence?" Some Americans might be grateful to Obama for hiding evidence of what we did to detainees, but that is unlikely to be the reaction of people around the world.
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I do think that the visceral experience of actually seeing a picture of extreme torture(assuming that's what is contained in the photos) would have a greater impact on inflaming anti-Americanism than would going through the intellectual process of thinking: "Hmm, Obama won't allow the pictures to be released, so we have to conclude that there's some pretty damning stuff there".
Remember when Bush supposedly made a suggestion(joking or otherwise) to Tony Blair that they bomb Al Jazeera's headquarters(which were located on friendly territory). Blair invoked the Official Secrets Act to have the transcripts classified, and we never found out exactly what Bush had said.
I'd wager that, had those transcripts been released, Bush would have had another "Bring 'Em On", multiplied to the power of ten, added to his resume, and possibly destined to haunt him for the duration of his public life. As it is, though, with the transcripts suppressed, I suspect very few people even remember that this incident took place. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: |
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An Andrew Sullivan reader weighs in...
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I think you hit the nail on the head. Obama does not make willy-nilly decisions. While the Administration�s decision to release the photos is certainly a great disappointment, I still think it may be a long play. That is, it�s a no-lose situation for him right now. He strengthens his position with the CIA and military at a time when he needs their full backing; he quells the media narrative that he won�t take on the Left of the Democratic Party; and if the ACLU or other groups win their battle to have the images released (which maybe he fills they will), he has reasonable distance from the decision. He is not going to lose the support of Democrats over this and he may gain some additional support from Independents and Republicans. This is a sound strategic decision for him.
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(I think the word "not" is supposed to appear after "decision" in the third sentence. Also, the word in parentheses should be "feels", not "fills".) |
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