|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
 Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:08 am Post subject: Homosexuals in the Islamic World |
 |
|
Someone keeps derailing unrelated threads to discuss homosexuals in the Islamic world.
| A certain poster wrote: |
| Again I harp on the homosexual issue because well I believe they shouldn't be killed. Sorry if I continually make that an issue. The debate back in the states is just over the word 'marriage'..far less at stake there.. |
Please feel free to use this thread to discuss homosexuals in the Islamic world to your hearts content.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Thu May 14, 2009 1:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is my one and only post on the topic:
I can not affect what happens to homosexuals in other parts of the world. I can protest the killing of homosexuals in my own society, by writing letters to the media and my local MP. But I have no influence over the legal system of any other nation that chooses to implement the death penalty against homosexuality. Nor is it in my power to affect the mentality of those who live in such countries and give their support such laws.
There is one exception to this. I can protest my government's involvement (or support) for wars that maim and kill innocent homosexual civillians in faraway places. For example, I can protest against cluster bombs that inevitably kill young homosexual girls and boys (often before they've even had a chance to discover their homosexuality) as they play or walk from their homes. I can protest the indescriminate killing of homosexual civillians in such places as Gaza and Falluja, because my government is complicit in these incidents (to a lesser or greater degree). But other than that I can not hope to affect the number of homosexuals killed around the world.
I do not believe that harrassing 'PC Lefties' on message boards will bring about the emancipation of oppressed homosexuals. Therefore, it is a strategy I have never myself attempted.
In my own society, I can treat heterosexuals and homosexuals with the common decency that I believe every human being should recieve. I can bring up my children not to have archaic and retarded views about gay people. But since my children are not Iranian children, this will not likely affect the plight of homosexuals in Iran.
If anyone can suggest practical steps I can take to end the killing of homosexuals in Iran, please volunteer them. Otherwise, don't bother me with your worthless crap. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frankly Mr Shankly
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
It depends on what you mean by the "Islamic World". I for one do not believe it to be a homogeneous whole, as there are quite a few places that buck the trend of the strict Wahabi-style Islam that the term has come to represent.
Most of your detractors, BB are right, when they hammer on about the lack of rights for LGBT people in the Middle East. Countries like Iran and Saudi show shocking disregard for the rights of these and other people. The situation there, to someone who cares deeply about the issue (I have gay relatives and friends, who I believe deserve the same rights to marry and enjoy life as straight couples), is completely untenable and to give politicians from those regions a voice in international fora is beyond the pale.
However, I live in Indonesia and am married to a Muslim, albeit a moderate one who feels the religion is for the most part, an antiquated nuisance. But, culture being what it is, we play along for her family's sake. They are neither hard line nor demanding, so it plays little role in our day-to-day life.
We also have gay friends here. My mother-in-law, my wife, myself. Heck, the MIL gets her hair cut by a transexual. I drink at a cafe run by an openly gay Chinese Muslim fellow who has been out since his teens. I mix with gay, lesbian and transexual people every day.
Recently, a major Islamic party here, PAN, suggested a quota system for jobs for transexuals, so they didn't have to rely on prostitution for a living. Make of that what you will.
OK, I live in Jakarta and you might say the capital is an island of tolerance in a sea of hatred. I've also encountered openly gay people in the outer provinces, in majority Muslim and Christian areas. I have a friend whose "adopted" transexual daughter is from heavily Islamic North Sumatra.
What is the point, you say? Well, here in "the world's largest Muslim country"TM, there is tolerance of homosexuals and queer people. I don't for a second think this represents the whole Muslim world, but it does stand for a significant chunk of it. Islam and homosexuality, might be, for the most part, disparate, but not totally incompatible. That being said, the type of Islam practiced down here is of the much more syncretic Sufist school and is the majority persuasion, despite the efforts of a-holes like the PKS and other Muslim Brotherhood-inspired nutters to import Egyptian/Arabic-style religion wholesale.
Make of that what you will.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Frankly Mr Shankly wrote: |
| Most of your detractors, BB are right, when they hammer on about the lack of rights for LGBT people in the Middle East. Countries like Iran and Saudi show shocking disregard for the rights of these and other people. |
Yeah, but what exactly do I do about it? I have never claimed the ME to be a bastion of gay rights, and am mystified by your statement. Have I ever claimed that gays enjoyed equal rights in the Middle East? Why is that addressed specifically at me? I didn't expect stupid crap like that from someone like you. This thread is not about convincing me that gays have it bad in the ME. This thread is about the futility of a certain chap harranging me for years and years demanding I address stuff like this, when there is frankly nothing that I can do about it.
It's one thing to regularly wank on to Big_Bird about the plight of gays in the ME, but what exactly do I do about it? That's the point. How exactly does telling me stuff like this again and again help the gays in the ME? It doesn't.
Frankly, Mr Shankly, you are missing the whole point of this thread. If someone wants to talk about the rights of gays in the Islam world - that is fine. Why not start threads about it? It's a good discussion topic.
But continually harping on about it to Big_Bird on unrelated threads for years and years is not going to change the situation of even one gay in the ME.
It's a great topic. Discuss. But I am not the "Dave's gatekeeper" of the Islamic world. I do not own the "Dave's discussion rights" to "Muslim" or "Islam." You can all do this without me. If this topic interests you, you can go right ahead and discuss. You do not need to seek out Big_Bird everytime you want to talk about Muslims. You do not have to address your discussions at me. Just talk away. I don't need to be here any more. Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Cut it out big bird. You're appearing extremely thin skinned, arrogant and annoying. Just ignore PF and get off this crusade. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Cut it out big bird. You're appearing extremely thin skinned, arrogant and annoying. Just ignore PF and get off this crusade. |
That's easy for you to say, but I am sick to the back teeth of it. 4 years is enough of this ugly nonsense. I've tried to hint to him from time to time that he ought to back off - but he just can't help himself. And so, I decided to take a stand and let him know enough is enough. That if he wants to discuss Islam, that's fine. But that he doesn't need to seek me out everytime and give me his personal hostility. I took him to task yesterday, but he still isn't getting it, and is whining about how it means so much to him to talk about gays and Islam.
And so this thread is to make this simple point:
If you need to talk about gays and Islam, make a bloody thread on which to do it. Don't go chasing your favourite 'PC lefty' when she doesn't want to play. I don't own the debates on Islam. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well, get over it. Frankly, do you come across as a apologist for the islamic demographic conquest of Europe. If you aren't prepared to deal with that, then don't discuss it and if someone wants to drag you in, ignore it. I'm tired of the topic and the flame wars that result of it so I tend to not bring it up. I'd rather not get into 20 pages flames. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Why don't you take your own advice and drop it? What are you doing here going on about it? Trying to prolongue it? Yes I am sure you of all people have great sympathy for his one man crusade, and I'm not surprised to see you stick your nose into it. And further more, I wasn't bringing up the topic. Our friend was. Incessantly.
This is a (mostly one-sided) flame war that has gone on for 4 years. I'm making it very explicit that I want no more part of it. There was a time when it never bothered me, but Christ, 4 years of it? That's over the top.
I am done with him now, and will not reply to more posts. Hopefully he's got the message. I do not want him to address me on any more threads, and I shall not address him.
That's all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What are the facts?
- Both BB & FMS frequently post about Islam and homosexuality.
- BB is serious about 20% of the time and engages in random online foreplay the other 80%.
- FMS is long winded and cantankerous for, approximately, 100% of the time - although seems to post less often than BB.
- I find both a little annoying, although I can think of worse posters.
The solution?
The current events forum should be about quality, not quantity. If you are posting 10 times a day, it is too much. You don't need to reply to every thread especially say, if you are not gay or islamic ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
need 2 know
Joined: 10 May 2009
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| They kill em'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frankly Mr Shankly
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| Well, get over it. Frankly, do you come across as a apologist for the islamic demographic conquest of Europe. If you aren't prepared to deal with that, then don't discuss it and if someone wants to drag you in, ignore it. I'm tired of the topic and the flame wars that result of it so I tend to not bring it up. I'd rather not get into 20 pages flames. |
I agree with about 95% of what you say, but on this issue your as interesting as a broken record screeching "existential threat, errrk, existential threat!".
You can take or leave what I said. The point of my post was to provide an alternate narrative to the usual "Islam is a monomaniacal whole" meme that permeates this board. That is just to say that there are shades of gray in this debate. That is all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frankly Mr Shankly
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| soviet_man wrote: |
What are the facts?
- Both BB & FMS frequently post about Islam and homosexuality. |
She does, I do not. Have not posted regularly on this part of DESL Cafe in over a year. I just saw this topic and though, as I live in the Muslim world, unlike most of the posters here, that I could add something to the narrative.
| soviet_man wrote: |
| - BB is serious about 20% of the time and engages in random online foreplay the other 80%. |
About the only true thing you've ever said here. Kudos.
| soviet_man wrote: |
| - FMS is long winded and cantankerous for, approximately, 100% of the time - although seems to post less often than BB. |
Hardly long winded. You'd be hard-pressed to find anything more than a one-liner, in anything more that 10% of what I post here. The second part of your assumption is correct, although you don't have the wherewithal to realise it contradicts your earlier statement.
| soviet_man wrote: |
| - I find both a little annoying, although I can think of worse posters. |
Should I be upset? Mate, if you aren't the troll that your schtick so obviously suggests (I mean, come on, who would use the term "Rintoulist", suggesting that a man who once held sway over about 30 student crypto-trots could possibly lend his name to a school of thought, with a straight face?), your ideological positions stand on so much wet sand as to beggar belief.
| soviet_man wrote: |
The solution?
The current events forum should be about quality, not quantity. If you are posting 10 times a day, it is too much. You don't need to reply to every thread especially say, if you are not gay or islamic ... |
Fine. Just remember that next time you delve into your "Russian Nationalistic Chauvinism Disguised as Neo-Stalinism for Dummies" manual to answer anything here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| soviet_man wrote: |
What are the facts?
- Both BB & FMS frequently post about Islam and homosexuality.
- BB is serious about 20% of the time and engages in random online foreplay the other 80%.
- FMS is long winded and cantankerous for, approximately, 100% of the time - although seems to post less often than BB.
- I find both a little annoying, although I can think of worse posters.
The solution?
The current events forum should be about quality, not quantity. If you are posting 10 times a day, it is too much. You don't need to reply to every thread especially say, if you are not gay or islamic ... |
I enjoy your character troll, and I can't say you annoy me even now, so I won't return your insults.
You've got it quite wrong. This thread was not created with FMS in mind and was in fact in homage to someone utterly different and we need not name names. Frankly Mr Shankly is a top bloke and I was annoyed with him for a brief moment. I know him from another site where he is much more active, and where we have less of this kind of sheer utter wankery. Actually, he wrote an interesting and informative post, and if this were a real thread, it might have inspired some interesting discussion.
As for me posting frequently about Islam and homosexuality...are you for real? I can't recall ever really visiting that topic except for in the last day or two at some pest's repeated insistence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Due to a new found interest in homosexuality and Islam, I found myself idly reading this article.
Cambridge Journal of Education
Publication details, including instructions for authors and subscription information:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=t713410698
Should Homosexuality be Taught as an Acceptable Alternative Lifestyle? A Muslim perspective
J. Mark Halstead a; Katarzyna Lewicka b
a Reader in Moral Education, School of Humanities and Cultural Interpretation, University of Plymouth,
b Student and Research Assistant, School of Humanities and Cultural Interpretation, University of Plymouth,
Online Publication Date: 01 March 1998
Thought I'd post a bit from it here:
| Quote: |
Is Islam Homophobic?
Homophobia was defined earlier as the persecution of homosexuals and discrimination
against them because of irrational fear and intolerance. Muslims do
not fear homosexuality, they disapprove of it (Sarwar, 1996, p. 23). Their
disapproval is not irrational, though the presuppositions on which the rational
beliefs are based are not shared by everyone. Since tolerance is commonly
denned as 'a deliberate choice not to interfere with conduct of which one
disapproves' (Halstead, 1996b), the question arises whether Muslims should
tolerate homosexual conduct.
The response to this question to a large extent depends on whether the
conduct is in public or in private. Most Muslims respect the norms of their
society imposed by their religion and condemn any public transgression of
Islamic morality. Since homosexual behaviour is just as much against Islamic
law as rape and child abuse, such behaviour in public would be seen to
undermine the foundations on which the Muslim society was built. It could not
be tolerated. Of course, in a non-Muslim society Muslims could not expect their
views to prevail, though they may nonetheless feel impelled to express their
disapproval of the behaviour. The story as far as private homosexual behaviour
is concerned is quite different. From a sociological perspective it may seem that
a blind eye is turned on homosexual activity so long as it takes place in private
(Schild, 1992, p. 183). Indeed, it is claimed that in some Muslim countries such
behaviour is widespread�between men and boys, older and younger boys,
masters and apprentices, teachers and pupils, in religious brotherhoods, within
the extended family, in public baths and in bars and other meeting places
(Schmitt & Sofer, 1992). From a religious perspective it might not be a matter
of turning a blind eye so much as leaving it to God to judge the behaviour and
give it its due reward in the world to come. Either way, it is clear that it is not
the practice in Islam 'to seek out those with homosexual desires with a view to
persecuting them' (Sarwar, 1996, p. 24).
|
Now, one thing I've learnt is that when you post an article (or part thereof) for discussion, many of the monkeys that inhabit this forum assume that you endorse it - every last drop of it. Usually the outraged condemnation by the rigid and dimwitted is part of the fun - (recall the skinned Niqab nose etc). But for my own reasons I'd like to make it clear that I haven't given much thought to this topic, and have no strong view about the article. It's there for your interest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some more idling through electronic journals.
Re-Orienting Desire: The Gay International and the Arab World
by Joseph Massad
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/public_culture/v014/14.2massad.pdf
Here's a snippet:
| Quote: |
Representing Arab and Muslim Desires
Western gay interest in and representations of sexuality in the Arab and Muslim
worlds coincided with the emergence of Western gay scholarship on sexuality.12
It was John Boswell who inaugurated a debate on the Muslim world in which
Western white gay scholars are still engaged. Boswell�s romantic and unsupported
assertion that �most Muslim societies have treated homosexuality with
indifference, if not admiration� was in fact a familiar claim: Christian portrayals
of the Muslim world as immoral and sexually licentious have been around for
centuries.13 Indeed, as Jeffrey Weeks informs us, �many Western gays, for a long
time now, have traveled hopefully to the Muslim world and expected to find sexual
paradise.�14 He explains, however, that �reality is more complex� (x). Drawing
upon the findings of a collection of articles edited by Arno Schmitt and
Jehoeda Sofer, Weeks asserts that �the sexual privileges allowed to men [in the
Muslim world] are largely at the expense of women� and that �those adult men
who do not fit readily into prevailing notions of true manhood . . . are often
looked down upon and despised� (x). Weeks views the present Muslim world as
undergoing transformation and concludes that there are two possible outcomes
of this change: �Only time will tell whether that culture will approximate more
and more to the secularised Western model, or come increasingly under the sway
of a new religious militancy. What can be said with some assurance is that it is
unlikely to stay the same� (xi). Weeks reflexively adopts the Western model as
the only possible�and universally applicable�liberatory telos.15 |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
