Korean Job Discussion Forums

[nicam]

Ugh! I've had it with the 3rd graders at my main school (my branch school is a dream come true in every way, but I'm only there 2 days out of the 5 ).

They have absolutely NO respect for me and refuse to stop talking and banging on the desks long enough for me to explain the rules of a game or activity. I shout and shout for them to listen, and they just ignore me and continue talking loudly to each other as if I'm not even there. It's awful, and I feel bad for the kids (about 1/3 or more of the class) who really want to learn. They try to listen, but the disrespect and talking is just too disruptive. My co-teacher has been m.i.a. lately, and even when she is there she barely controls them. Most of these kids have no English skills compared to my branch school where they are fluent (and respectful) enough to understand instructions and participate.

I was tearing up last class with them, and nearly walked out. At this point I don't want to give them the satisfaction of having fun in class (i.e. game and activity), next week. That would be rewarding them. I also don't want to punish the good ones.

I won't take another 2 months of this. Does anyone have any advice, or a disciplinary method that's worked in a similar situation?

Thanks.

[D.D.]

My students have been bad this year and I was doing everything to try and shut them up. This week I give them a task to do and then take the students in groups of 5 out of the class for talking time. It has been fun to listen to the co-teacher doing discipline because she is left alone with the monsters.

Another thing you can do is put them in groups and give them a task and then just grab a chair and go talk to them in their groups. Get the co-teacher to take 3 groups and you take 3.

I just talk small talk with them. Ask them what they do for fun and about their lives. they like to talk about themselves as most people do. This also makes them like you when you get to know them as people rather than a class.


Main thing is to avoid talking from the front of the class in classes with noisy students. Give them an activity quick and get on with class.

I have another rule called the 4 in 30 rule which I believe in. If I kick out 4 students in a class of 40 I notice the rest of the class settles down. You just need to pick the 4 students that ramp up the class.


Another tactic is to stand in the front and say nothing until they quiet down. If this doesn't work just look at the co-teacher and she should quiet them down. If the co-teacher can't do that then it is not your fault.

[Fishead soup]

There's a good chance they don't understand the rules of the games you are playing. Therefore the game doesn't go smoothly. Then the class goes into a state of Anarchy because. Most of the students are confused.

There may be some students with a higher level ability have them translate how to play the game to the rest. Another option is getting your co-teacher in the room for 5- 10 minutes to explain
how to play the game. Then she can go back and shop online. There are also online game sites like Baam and Fling the teacher. These run more smoothly than trying chalk board games.

If the students still refuse to behave in a civilized manner stop playing games. Tell them you will only start playing games when you have an orderly class. Bring in photo-copies of Side by Side and make them do choral drilling and substitution activities. These are hightly underated activities.

Transition activities are good when either you want to change activity or make a loud class quiet. Simply ask the students to clap 5 times or clap 10 times. Worse case scenerio ask the whole class to stand and raise their hands in the air.

You should never try to play games for the full period. Keep it for the end to reward good behavour.

[Demophobe]

[sarbonn]

I've had the same problem myself. No amount of common sense or even prior instruction prepares you for a group of kids screaming "We want ice cream" no matter what you attempt to do. I have one class of this type of activity and I cringe every time I have to go into that classroom. There is no control over that group because there are not enough kids to separate them, and the kids are rich, spoiled creatures from Hell that have no intentions of doing anything but what they choose to do. It doesn't help that the management schedules the class to be as disruptive as possible, like making it a two hour class with no authorization for a break. Stuff like that.

[icnelly]

[nicam]

I didn't let them see me sweat, and I didn't walk out or visibly lose my cool.

After yelling at them to quiet down a couple of times and pulling out all the other stops (like standing there in silence) to no avail I simply continued the activity with the kids who were enjoying it and participating. The activities I do with them are suitable for their level, and usually go smoothly, and if they don't understand a command like "write three questions on paper," that's because they are not calm enough to focus. I have good students that translate if need be, but it wasn't necessary for this task. They simply refused. I had performed this activity with other lower level classes and it worked beautifully. It's a behavioral issue with these kids in this particular school and grade. The Korean teachers all complain about them as well.

I will absolutely do some mundane and boring stuff with them and let them know that activities will resume only when they behave. Thanks for all the feedback, and icnelly you are always full of wonderfully helpful information!

[Goku]

Hey Nicam

I have the same exact problem, I've spent a lot of time just working on classroom management. I think it's great to see other teachers recognizing their student's respect problem rather than just lay back and "let it go". I for a long time have been pulling my hair over this respect issue, not just kids paying attention, but generally giving me the "teacher" title.

A great quote that emphasizes the importance of respect and classroom managment said "Even though classroom management shouldn't be the focus of a teacher, it's the grounding foundation that all learning can be built upon, without classroom management, students cannot learn."

I've been practicing the advice of this video lately: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHzTUYAOkPM

It has been working better than anything I've tried before. And I've spent a lot of time studying classroom management and practicing different things.

A common practice is also routines, but assuming you're a PS teacher, routines are impossibly hard to incorporate given the short amount of time we have with all students.

I just pretend I'm mr. grimes from that video, act his tone, mimic his mannerisms and my students become sooooooo angelic. It almost brought a tear to my eye when it first happened. I can't tell you 180 the kids were when i tried it.

The first thing that happened was that I realized how annoying I appeared.

"EVERYONE OPEN YOUR BOOKS TO PAGE 40" ordering them like monkeys.

Now I say it like "today we'll start our lesson on page 40. If you have trouble finding it, I'll come around and help you"

I think acting and feeling like every kid is doing the right thing helps a lot. Even though u get some bad kids with ill intentions, just the mere fact that you "believe" in them gets them to act nicely and properly.

Please try this and let me know how it works. I know it doesn't work in every situation.

[dporter]

I guess this is a good time to mention rule #1 of classroom management. It is easier to start off as a strict disciplinarian and get more lenient as the term progresses than to go the other way.

That being said, I think there have been several threads recently that have touched on possible solutions.

First, establish some sort of classroom currency system. Each successful activity is worth 10 points and those with 100 points at the end of the term will have a special lunch with the teacher. Or something to that effect.

Next utilize the small group model (divide and conquer) and give clearly defined tasks. For example, if you are teaching adjectives give each group a magazine and tell them that they have 10 minutes to write down as many adjectives (and the page numbers) that they can find. The group with the most adjectives will get 5 bonus points.

After the time has expired select 2 members of each group to write their list on the board. Make a big deal about some of the words (Wow! that is a great adjective!!!) and encourage those still sitting to count the list for the other groups.

Assuming you started the class by explaining what an adjective is (What you know) end the class by reviewing (What you've learned.)

In this type of classroom activity you are mostly taking the role of facilitator and the kids are doing most of the work. This is the ideal situation. You can walk around - answer questions - and monitor progress. If a kid gets out of hand its easy to deal with and hopefully his/her peers will provide encouragement to stay on task due to the point system.

[ddeubel]

A lot of good things said and see our conversation/discussion as icnelly suggested - on EFL Classroom 2.0. Also a few nice videos in our video section.

I won't repeat so much but will state the number one rule of classroom management (which isn't start strict - that is good advice but there is something much more important and primary).

Classroom Management is an issue because students aren't learning!

Learning is a natural and self organizing principle. Everyone wants to learn, just like we want acceptance and want to have energy. When there are problems in a classroom with discipline, it is overall a problem of "NO LEARNING". Rethink everything from that angle.

When students are learning, you won't have any fires. Just a few small sparks.

See this video - Hole in the Wall of Sugata Mitra. This speaks about this principle of learning. http://www.hole-in-the-wall.com/ videos on the right.

Smart man.

DD
http://eflclassroom.com

[mack the knife]

I'm going to inject a little reality into this thread now.

I've tutored at least fifty middle school students, and we always talk about this sort of thing. I used to read these miserable threads and I think, "No, it can't be that bad, they're just crappy teachers." I was wrong.

Every middle school student I've ever taught has the same story to tell. In a good class with say, 35-40 students, roughly 25% will give a damn about the teacher or the lesson. Regardless of the teacher or the lesson. They are not always the brightest 25%, either. More often than not, the few students who actually want to listen and participate will be the average students. The higher level students already know everything because they learned it in cram schools, so they've no interest. The lower level students just don't give a damn.

So I ask my students how their teachers react when the whole class is rude and disruptive and whatnot, and the answer is inevitably one of two responses: ignore the trouble makers and focus solely on the students who want to learn, and/or some sort of physical punishment (which, according to my students, doesn't accomplish a damn thing).

So, my advice to you, based on years of "research," is to do what the natives do; that is, figure out which students give a damn, put them in the front of the class, and let the others wallow in their own stupidity. Kick the trouble makers out if they disrupt the class to the point where you can't even teach the ones you want to.

[nicam]

Goku, that video is pretty awesome! I will try the approach and let you know if I see any difference. It seems like it's all in the way you convey things, and I love how he uses humor to subtly discipline. I think this could work despite the language barrier. Plus, I've always wanted to talk like people in old movies.

I've had a couple of instances where I jokingly chided a student and the rest of the class got a kick out of it, and in both instances the student immediately stopped and smiled apologetically.

I remember what made my old teachers my favorites, and it was that they were able to joke around and be lighthearted in such a way that the students would feel guilty acting out in class because they genuinely liked and respected the teacher, and the ones who still did act out were usually scolded by the other students in the class.

dporter, I am a big fan of dividing them into groups. Also, the currency system is a great idea. Candy would probably do the trick in the beginning.

[nicam]

[Tobias]

Perhaps the higher-ups want you gone, so they're turning your students against you so you'll get pissed off and quit. They are known to do that in SK, a place where firing is frowned upon.

I've even had former colleagues who didn't like me encourage my formerly-well-behaved students to turn into brats. The same colleagues even turned my downstairs neighbors into a-holes as well. All in a lame attempt to get me to quit my job.

Been there, seen that. They're great one day, and then suddenly, without warning, they turn into devils. Does this sound like your situation? If 'yes', then you should consider the idea that they've been coached and told to act up.

[poet13]

nicam...aside from what everyone else says, if they're as bad as all that, AND the coteacher is mia, then you need to need the classroom. Go find the CT, and ask the CT to regain control of the classroom. If even the CT cannot get classroom control, then you need to go up the chain of command to someone who can.

Lot's of posters will tell you...

grow some balls
learn to use "command voice"
dont shout

or things like..

this never happens to me.

Well, all other things being equal, the same group of students are going to react to different teachers in different ways each time.

I don't have the problems you're describing, but then again, most people would likely think that I'm too strict.....the other side of that coin is that the students respect me, and the K-teachers treat me as an equal.....wait, that's not a good thing, is it?

Bottom line. Your job is not to control the classroom. Your job is to provide native English experience to the students. If your CT or school cannot provide an environment in which you can do so, then appeal as high as you need to to make it happen.

Good luck.



PS...Hey ddeubel...been a while.