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madhusudan
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: Grammar Q |
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In the sentence: 'Not only have I done it, but others have as well' why is the verb placed before 'I'? I couldn't give a reason last class and just told them to accept certain forms as correct.
I'd like to give some explanation. Help appreciated. |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: |
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It's not wrong, but it is a bit awkward in my opinion. I would say something more like, "I am not the only one who ___".
The only real use I see is to show comparison. |
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reactionary
Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: korreia
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:01 am Post subject: |
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It's a weird sentence form. I would say it's a pattern that tries to emphasize the 2nd clause in the sentence.
Not only did I visit China, but Korea as well. |
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smaulik
Joined: 01 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Technically, "have" is not a verb, it's an auxiliary, and appears before the verb in certain circumstances (questions, for example). |
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Tobias
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Look up the 'not only....but (also)' construction. |
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icnelly
Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Location: Bucheon
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| smaulik wrote: |
| Technically, "have" is not a verb, it's an auxiliary, and appears before the verb in certain circumstances (questions, for example). |
I hope you mean in the OP's example, because have is a very typical transitive verb as well as an auxiliary.
EDIT: link |
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smaulik
Joined: 01 May 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| icnelly wrote: |
| smaulik wrote: |
| Technically, "have" is not a verb, it's an auxiliary, and appears before the verb in certain circumstances (questions, for example). |
I hope you mean in the OP's example, because have is a very typical transitive verb as well as an auxiliary.
EDIT: link |
yes. |
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Insidejohnmalkovich
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: Pusan
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is an idiomatic relic from the older days when sentences beginning with adverbs or prepositional phrases caused inverted verb-subject order.
The King James Bible often followed such a "rule" (English did not have prescribed rules until the eighteenth century, I have been led to believe): "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."
On another note: an auxilliary verb is still a verb, which is why it follows general characteristics of a verb such as conjugation, tense (have eaten, had eaten), mood, sentence order. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Q |
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| madhusudan wrote: |
In the sentence: 'Not only have I done it, but others have as well' why is the verb placed before 'I'? I couldn't give a reason last class and just told them to accept certain forms as correct.
I'd like to give some explanation. Help appreciated. |
The verb is 'done' (or, as some would have it, 'have done') and 'have' is the auxiliary verb.
As someone already said, the reason for the word order is that that's how this sentence pattern works: 'Not only...but...'.
If you think about it, changing the word order so that the subject comes after the verb changes the meaning, besides sounding awkward. E.g. "Not only I have done it, but others too have done it".
Wish I could come up with a deeper explanation but that ought to be enough to satisfy kids. Fake a confident manner when you say it, and they'll take it as gospel! |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Insidejohnmalkovich wrote: |
I think it is an idiomatic relic from the older days when sentences beginning with adverbs or prepositional phrases caused inverted verb-subject order.
The King James Bible often followed such a "rule" (English did not have prescribed rules until the eighteenth century, I have been led to believe): "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." |
Prepositional phrases? Like "In the desert shalt thou stay!"? But that could equally well be reversed: "In the desert thou shalt stay!". You can't reverse the verb-subject order in 'Not only...but...' (or in 'Neither ... but ...' either).
I don't know the answer but I think there's more at work here than idiom. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Q |
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| madhusudan wrote: |
| ... 'Not only have I done it, but others have as well'... |
Really? What's it like?  |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
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I was taught in linguistics that there is a difference between English teacher rules and rules of English. The first are a bunch of nonsense that originated with a desire to make English more like Latin. The second are a set of observations of a living language that change with the language.
Trying to capture a language with rules is like trying to trap sunlight with your bare hands.
In short, there is no why. It is what it is. I often tell my students that if they are uncertain and have to guess x way is the best guess, but there are no hard and fast rules. The tao of teaching English requires confidence without certainty. We should be paid more. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
I was taught in linguistics that there is a difference between English teacher rules and rules of English. The first are a bunch of nonsense that originated with a desire to make English more like Latin. The second are a set of observations of a living language that change with the language.
Trying to capture a language with rules is like trying to trap sunlight with your bare hands.
In short, there is no why. It is what it is. I often tell my students that if they are uncertain and have to guess x way is the best guess, but there are no hard and fast rules. The tao of teaching English requires confidence without certainty. We should be paid more. |
not is language random
is is complicated it that English just |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar Q |
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| madhusudan wrote: |
In the sentence: 'Not only have I done it, but others have as well' why is the verb placed before 'I'? I couldn't give a reason last class and just told them to accept certain forms as correct.
I'd like to give some explanation. Help appreciated. |
This is an "emphatic" sentence meant to place emphasis on the fact that something was done.
It would typically come in response to someone saying something like,
"No one has ever done this and no one ever could."
The tense used is the present perfect in which have is the auxiliary and done is the main verb.
Another way of writing it might be...
Well, I've done it and so have many others.
I think someone else mentioned the form "have I done" is typical when a sentence follows "not only". |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
not is language random
is is complicated it that English just |
Who said random? Alive and untamable. It has no use for your rules. Just today I had to tell students in two different classes that the rule in the book was less than 100%, give them examples, and suggest an alternate understanding that will with luck be more useful.
It is not chaos. It is complexity. An emergent structure driven by both chaos and order. |
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