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Pakistan mystics targeted by Taliban
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Pakistan mystics targeted by Taliban

Quote:

Pakistan mystics targeted by Taliban
'And to think they do this in the name of Islam,' one says

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - Worshippers still flock to the grave of Rahman Baba, a Muslim mystic revered by millions in Pakistan and Afghanistan. But they now pray at a mound of rubble and twisted steel � all that remains of his tomb since militants bombed it.

The blast in March was the most high-profile in a recent spate of attacks against Pakistan's homespun, tolerant brand of Islam by hard-liners trying to replace it with the more austere version espoused by the Taliban, al-Qaida and other Sunni extremist groups.

"This hurts deep in my heart," said Ihasan ul-Haq, as he looked through a rainstorm onto the ruins of the once ornate, whitewashed tomb on the outskirts of Peshawar, a main northwestern town coming under the influence of the extremists. "And to think they do this in the name of Islam."

The attack was a sign of the extreme intolerance of the militants and the threat posed by the insurgency to the religious and cultural heart of Pakistan, a nation of 170 million people that the U.S. sees as critical in the global fight against Islamic extremism..

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30902421/

What Al Qaedists are really about.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:46 am Post subject:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist. This is no reason for America to be involved there.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Exactly.

The fate of these Pakistan mystics is of no concern to America.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

I don't understand your post. This reads as if you are suggesting this is about attacking non-muslims. This is about radical 'purists' and islamists attacking the culture and way of life of other muslims, i.e. sufi muslims, whom the wahhabi and Taleban consider idolators.

Last edited by Big_Bird on Sat May 23, 2009 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Frankly Mr Shankly

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject:

Basically mirrors the fight for the soul of Islam here in Indonesia. Salafist/Wahabist newcomers vs traditionalist Sufists.

Frankly Mr Shankly

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Examples?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:23 am Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Well, we could probably fine-tune Mise's point to be "Muslims killing non-Muslims and perceived apostates".

But I don't think it really matters which religion is involved here. The key point is that these killings do not impact the USA, or most of the countries that have troops in Afghanistan. Therefore, they don't provide a strategic rationale for our continued presence there.

I suppose there is still a humanitarian rationale, but I'm really not convinced that the people of Afghanistan are better off now than they were ten years ago.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:39 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Possibly even worse off. And the war has destablised the Pashtun region (which incorporates about 40 million people spread over an area that incorporates both Afghanistan and Pakistan) and that is why there is so much trouble in Pakistan these days. An absolute f***ing balls up if you ask me.

BTW, I was addressing mises' first sentence, not his second (which I also agree with).

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:50 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

I think it throws some light on to what really motivates Al Qaeda.

mises

Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:20 am Post subject:

Frankly Mr Shankly wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Examples?

http://www.boloji.com/perspective/174.htm

Quote:

There are various estimates on how many million Hindus have been slaughtered by Islamic invaders inspired by holy Quran. Prof Bill French of the Centre for the Study of Political Islam, Tennessee, who has conducted an in-depth research on the subject, told me that Muslims have killed 120 million human beings around the globe (including 40 million Hindus in India alone). ... Prof K S Lal writes that 60 to 70 million Hindus were murdered by Muslim rulers'.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Quote:

...Islamic conquests of India from the seventh through the 16th centuries in which India's Buddhists were wiped out and 70 million-80 million Hindus were slaughtered by Muslim overlords.

Did you really not know that?

Frankly Mr Shankly

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject:

mises wrote:

Frankly Mr Shankly wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Examples?

http://www.boloji.com/perspective/174.htm

Quote:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Quote:

...Islamic conquests of India from the seventh through the 16th centuries in which India's Buddhists were wiped out and 70 million-80 million Hindus were slaughtered by Muslim overlords.

Did you really not know that?

Sorry, was reading through bloodshot eyes yesterday, I saw southeast Asia.

For the sake of balance, would you mention the number of Muslims that have been killed or injured by Hindu fundamentalists during and since partition?

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject:

Frankly Mr Shankly wrote:

mises wrote:

Frankly Mr Shankly wrote:

mises wrote:

muslims have been culling non-muslims in South Asia for hundreds and hundreds of years. It will continue until islam doesn't exist.

This is no reason for America to be involved there.

Examples?

http://www.boloji.com/perspective/174.htm

Quote:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702394020&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Quote:

...Islamic conquests of India from the seventh through the 16th centuries in which India's Buddhists were wiped out and 70 million-80 million Hindus were slaughtered by Muslim overlords.

Did you really not know that?

No, he's not talking about the partition. I think he's talking about the Muslim conquest of India, between the 11th and 17th centuries. According to one historian 80million non-muslims were killed in this conquest. According to others, it is either: complete bunkum, or impossible to know whether the figures were that high.

Here from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_in_the_Indian_subcontinent

Quote:

Conversion controversy

Considerable controversy exists both in scholarly and public opinion about the conversions to Islam typically represented by the following schools of thought:[3]

1. That the bulk of Muslims are descendants of migrants from the Iranian plateau or Arabs.[4]
2. A related view is that conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite or for relief from taxes for being a non-muslim[3][4]
3. Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints and involved a genuine change of heart[3]
4. Conversion came from Buddhists and the en masse conversions of lower castes for social liberation and as a rejection of the oppressive existent caste structures.[4]
5. Was a combination, initially made under duress followed by a genuine change of heart[3]
6. As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time into the sphere of the dominant Muslim civilization and global polity at large.[4]

Embedded within this lies the concept of Islam as a foreign imposition and Hinduism being a natural condition of the natives who resisted, resulting the failure of the project to Islamicize the Indian subcontinent and is highly embroiled with the politics of the partition and communalism in India.[3]

An estimate of the number of people killed, based on the Muslim chronicles and demographic calculations, was done by K.S. Lal in his book Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India, who claimed that between 1000 CE and 1500 CE, the population of Hindus decreased by 80 million. His work has come under criticism by historians such as Simon Digby (School of Oriental and African Studies) and the Marxist historian Irfan Habib for its agenda and lack of accurate data in pre-census times. Lal has responded to these criticisms in later works. Historians such as Will Durant contend that Islam spread through violence.[5][6] Sir Jadunath Sarkar contends that that several Muslim invaders were waging a systematic jihad against Hindus in India to the effect that "Every device short of massacre in cold blood was resorted to in order to convert heathen subjects."[7] In particular the records kept by al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary, in the Tarikh-i-Yamini document several episodes of bloody military campaigns.[citation needed] Hindus who converted to Islam however were not completely immune to persecution due to the Caste system among South Asian Muslims in India established by Ziauddin al-Barani in the Fatawa-i Jahandari.[8], where they were regarded as an "Ajlaf" caste and subjected to discrimination by the "Ashraf" castes[9].

Critics of the "Religion of the sword theory" point to the presence of the strong Muslim communities found in Southern India, modern day Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and western Burma, Indonesia and the Philippines coupled with the distinctive lack of equivalent Muslim communities around the heartland of historical Muslim empires in the Indian subcontinent as refutation to the "conversion by the sword theory".[4] The legacy of Muslim conquest of South Asia is a hotly debated issue even today. Different population estimates by economic historian Angus Maddison[10] show that India's total population, including adherents of all religions, did not decrease between 1000 and 1500, but increased by about 35 million, from 75 million to 110 million, during that time.

Not all Muslim invaders were simply raiders. Later rulers fought on to win kingdoms and stayed to create new ruling dynasties. The practices of these new rulers and their subsequent heirs (some of whom were borne of Hindu wives) varied considerably. While some were uniformly hated, others developed a popular following. According to the memoirs of Ibn Batuta who travelled through Delhi in the 14th century, one of the previous sultans had been especially brutal and was deeply hated by Delhi's population. His memoirs also indicate that Muslims from the Arab world, from Persia and Turkey were often favored with important posts at the royal courts suggesting that locals may have played a somewhat subordinate role in the Delhi administration. The term "Turk" was commonly used to refer to their higher social status. S.A.A. Rizvi (The Wonder That Was India - II), however points to Muhammad bin Tughlaq as not only encouraging locals but promoting artisan groups such as cooks, barbers and gardeners to high administrative posts. In his reign, it is likely that conversions to Islam took place as a means of seeking greater social mobility and improved social standing.[11]

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:58 pm Post subject:

And in fairness, you can't say the Muslims were unique.

There's a whole website devoted to the atrocities of Christians:

The Burning Cross

Quote:

"Explore the history and origins of a mysterious Jewish cult that became one of the most powerful religions in the world � through deception, religious intolerance, and mass-murder!"

One only has to think of what the Portuguese did in Goa - and how they forcefully converted the Hindu population to Catholicism, and the horrific atrocities perpetrated to achieve this. Xavier is considered a hero to the Portuguese, and a genocidal maniac to Indians.

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:02 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Well, we could probably fine-tune Mise's point to be "Muslims killing non-Muslims and perceived apostates".

Would even the Taleban consider the Sufis to be 'perceived apostates?' After all, they haven't forsaken their religion. And traditionally most Muslims around the world practiced a Sufi influenced form of Islam. Indeed, it's the Wahabists and the Taleban who are the new kids on the block.

More likely they feel Sufis are 'deviating from the true path.'

Frankly Mr Shankly

Joined: 13 Feb 2008

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject:

Interested wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Well, we could probably fine-tune Mise's point to be "Muslims killing non-Muslims and perceived apostates".

Depends on the view they take vis-a-vis Takfir, or the right to kill Muslims they believe have strayed from the true path. Bombs in Jakarta and Bali have killed Muslims and the justification from JI has essentially been that no good Muslim would have been in those areas if they were serious about their religion.

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