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What is agnosticism?
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AgDragon01

Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Agnostic is therefore a highly trivial term. To say one is agnostic is to say absolutely nothing.

We are all also agnostic about the existence of magic elves. They might exist - who knows?

However, the arguments against magic elves' existence are overwhelming and so too God in my view. If something doesn't make any sense, or fails to do the explanatory job it intends, this is an excellent reason not to believe it exists. Agnosticism is - literally - "I dunno" but de facto is a contemptible shrug of indifference and, contrary to what the agnostic might think, not particularly worthy of respect.

Agnosticism isn't necessarily a flippant "I don't care." It certainly can be. But from a philosophical point of view, delving into the precise limits and boundaries of human knowledge is a very detailed and deep pursuit that can hardly be called a "shrug of indifference."

lithium

Joined: 18 Jun 2008

Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject:

reactionary wrote:

I consider myself agnostic because yes, I am not certain. If you want to call me an atheist, go right ahead. That certainly doesn't offend me.

If there's a god, great.

If there isn't, oh well.

I can sit and listen to believers and "hard" atheists argue all day, I don't really care in the end.

Oh, you will one day.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject:

Allow me to second AgDragon01's view on the matter. It is both correct and well articulated.

reactionary

Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Location: korreia

Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject:

lithium wrote:

reactionary wrote:

Oh, you will one day.

Uh, nope. Hanging out on cloud recliners? Cool with me. Eternal sleep? I won't know the difference. Reincarnation? Well, that's kind of like traveling, right??

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Allow me to second AgDragon01's view on the matter. It is both correct and well articulated.

I very much stand by my previous assessment

alice123

Joined: 16 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject:

Agnostics think there can be a God or some greater being, but they're not sure what it is.

the boy next door

Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Location: next door

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject:

either way, you're not one of us!

eamo

Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject:

It's not cowardly in any way to be an agnostic. It's just an intellectual decision. From the empirical evidence we have, there seems to not be a God. But I can't prove the non-existence of God. So I'm an agnostic.

hamlet712

Joined: 16 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:03 am Post subject:

shifter2009 wrote:

I consider myself one as I think the flat out rejection of the idea of a god or gods is equally as arrogant as the absolute belief in the crazy ass religions we already came up with. With the universe being as vast and complicated as it is and us knowing so little I think it's best to just acknowledge our lack of knowledge and be humble in that.

This is by far the most intelligent comment I have ever heard from anyone ( other than myself) on this issue. Why Can the Religious and the Athiests not get thier heads around this common sense comment.

Relgion is a Faith, so Is Athiesm, and the fundamental truth of BOth is that Both could be wrong, and neither side can prove that they are correct.

Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject:

hamlet712 wrote:

shifter2009 wrote:

I think it's best to just acknowledge our lack of knowledge and be humble in that.

Yeah! Why can't they just be humble in their uncertainty? Just like you...

hamlet712 wrote:

Relgion is a Faith, so Is Athiesm, and the fundamental truth of BOth is that Both could be wrong, and neither side can prove that they are correct.

and no one can prove this statement is correct either.

AgDragon01

Joined: 13 Nov 2008

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject:

hamlet712 wrote:

shifter2009 wrote:

It depends where you're coming from philosophically. If you are an analytical philosopher whose bedrock is logic, then certain things can be proven to not exist if they are logically false. To the analytical atheist, theodicy is a simple, solid proof of the nonexistence of of a sovereign, omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent, creator God. Analytical philosophy sets itself diametrically opposite to faith, at least the kind of faith that religion seems to talk about. It certainly seemed to be a good, reasoned, non faith argument to me back when I was into analytic philosophy.

hamlet712

Joined: 16 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 7:56 pm Post subject:

Underwaterbob wrote:

hamlet712 wrote:

shifter2009 wrote:

I think it's best to just acknowledge our lack of knowledge and be humble in that.

Yeah! Why can't they just be humble in their uncertainty? Just like you...

hamlet712 wrote:

Relgion is a Faith, so Is Athiesm, and the fundamental truth of BOth is that Both could be wrong, and neither side can prove that they are correct.

and no one can prove this statement is correct either.

Humbleness is not something I posses when dealing with simple logic vs plain ignorance. For any one, or any relgions to say they know the unknowable is absurd. I've debated many people who were either Relgious or athiests who couldn't open thier minds up to the possibility that they were wrong. I am fully aware that neither side can prove their argument for their case, beyond all shred of doubt, any intelligent person - athiest or relgious - should come to the same conclusion.

So the fact that you say that last statement can't be proven is patently absurd. There is no evidence to CONFIRM that God exists, nor is there EVIDENCE to confirm that he does not ( there MAY be a way some day to show which side is right)

Oh and to the last post, while I understand the differences you state about different philosophies, if one of them had proven that God exists or doesnt it would have made the papers. And Philosophy is hardly a PROOF of anything either since philosophy is basically a system of making arguments, not proofs.

I like what Thomas Aquinas writes about the "proofs' for angels, souls, one god, and other rlegious dogma, but he didnt prove that these things exist, only that its more logical to assume that they do as opposed to not.

I'm one of the kind that thinks it far more logical to think that there is a God as opposed to there not being one, and its ignorant to not think that I must be wrong, or that I have to be right.

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject:

AgDragon01 wrote:

hamlet712 wrote:

shifter2009 wrote:

In other words, theism is based on faith and atheism is based on reason. Faith is not just believing that there is a god, but believing there is a god no matter what the evidence is. If a proposition cannot meet the requirements of reason - evidence, internal consistency and a valid argument - but is believed in anyway, to do so is faith-based. If a proposition cannot meet the requirements of reason and is, therefore, not believed in, it is reason-based.

Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject:

hamlet712 wrote:

I'm sure there are very intelligent people sitting on both sides of the god debate. What mystical foresight do you possess that gives you the right to call their choice "plain ignorance"?

hamlet712 wrote:

So the fact that you say that last statement can't be proven is patently absurd. There is no evidence to CONFIRM that God exists, nor is there EVIDENCE to confirm that he does not ( there MAY be a way some day to show which side is right)

Prove it.

hamlet712

Joined: 16 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 9:31 pm Post subject:

Underwaterbob wrote:

hamlet712 wrote:

I'm sure there are very intelligent people sitting on both sides of the god debate. What mystical foresight do you possess that gives you the right to call their choice "plain ignorance"?

hamlet712 wrote:

Prove it.

There are intelligent people on both sides of the debate. When they say " I am right" their intelligence goes out the window. Many intelligent people on either side of the debate can make their case and argue it, but thats all it is is argument, not proof.

The sky is blue. Do I need to prove that?

There is no proof that God exists, there is no proof that he doesn't therefore the debate on either side can rage on. You want me to prove that there is no evidence that God exists or that he doesnt?

What would you like me to do, looks for scientific studies that Don't exist?

Again, people like me and the guy I applauded come off as geniuses by comparison.

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