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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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| Do Koreans offend you with their English? |
| Yes, because they make me feel like a foreigner. |
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9% |
[ 14 ] |
| No. I don't feel offended. |
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82% |
[ 123 ] |
| Yes, because they make me feel used. |
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8% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 149 |
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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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 Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Tomato only hears what he wants to hear. Whenever someone posts advice that is contrary to what he wants, he responds with ridiculously exaggerated, irrelevant analogies.
I feel a little bad writing that because Tomato does seem like a nice guy, but it's obvious that he's unwilling to take (most) advice. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Then why am I so interested in Kim Su Bok's post?
Why did I tell him that he might have found something I've been looking for for 9 years?
Why am I asking him to check the documentation so I can read more about it?
Why did I block copy his message, post it on Yahoo Answers and Hanlingo, and ask if anyone else had further information?
Why am I translating his post so I could ask my Korean co-workers for their comments tommorow?
It's because in the 9 years I have been struggling to learn Korean, this is the first time anyone had anything more cerebral to say than "Boy, are you ever paranoid!" |
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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:08 am Post subject: |
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You'll notice I said you are unwilling to take most advice.
It's clear that you'd rather see yourself as a victim. For example, you're so fond of comparing your inability to be completely immersed in the Korean language with the struggles of African Americans during the years of segregation.
Anyway, hopefully you can find an answer that satisfies you and then you can move on and enter the world of normal social interaction, whether it be in Korean, English, or a combination of the two. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: |
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You might not like the idea of language exchanges tomato but I think they can be gold if you find the right person. I found a good one (she was a certified Korean teacher) and insisted on using Korean during my part of the language exchange except when absolutely necessary. It's a level of control that you'll find very hard to get otherwise. I certainly would not have been able to pass 능력시험 3급 otherwise.
I sympathize with you about the difficulties of practicing Korean here but I think in the end you have to move on to acceptance of the reality of the situation and either do a language exchange or take a Korean class. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
You might not like the idea of language exchanges tomato but I think they can be gold if you find the right person. I found a good one (she was a certified Korean teacher) and insisted on using Korean during my part of the language exchange except when absolutely necessary. It's a level of control that you'll find very hard to get otherwise. I certainly would not have been able to pass 능력시험 3급 otherwise.
I sympathize with you about the difficulties of practicing Korean here but I think in the end you have to move on to acceptance of the reality of the situation and either do a language exchange or take a Korean class. |
This reminded me of the one caveat for my free Korean lessons for you Tomato. If at anytime you speak English during the lesson the standard fee of 십만원 would apply. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Here is a response which I got in the mail yesterday.
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I think my answer may appear kind of strange. Simply, I believe Koreans wonder why any foreigner would learn Korean. They do not see it as something necessary, nor do they see it as something to which you have entree.
As well, foreigners who have babies in Korea can not get citizenship for their children. Koreans would wonder why anyone would pursue it, anyways.
In Western societies, especially in the Americas but increasingly in Europe as well, we see our societies as mosaics and melting pots, albeit with some traditional cultures as well. But in Korea there is only one society to which to enter by birth. To me, as a Canadian, that's xenophobic. To a Korean, that's common sense.
When I lived in Korea I knew I needed a bathing cap to go to the waterpark. My wife, son and I went to Walmart, but they did not carry such a thing. They were even confused that I would go there for it. The waterpark had it. Common sense changes from place to place. There is a common sense all its own in Korea. When I adapted to that notion I got along a lot better.
But I would always say that no matter how long you are in Korea, and I have friends in Korea who have lived there since the late 60's, your place in society is as a foreigner. Koreans accept their role in society, and you probably will have to do so as well. What you're experiencing in regards to language is a part of that.
I hope this helps. I have tried to present this without sounding racist. It is my belief that it is simply different in Korea. |
What do you think? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| tomato wrote: |
| KimSuBok wrote: |
| Korea is very much a tribal society where the world (and it's people) is divided into two distinct categories. |
When I came here, I was surprised to see schools advertised as 외국어 학원's even though the only language they taught was English.
Apparently, English is the world's only 외국어.
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| The two categories are Korean, and Foreign. It's that simple. |
I am sometimes surprised at how Korean children view the rest of the world. I have had children ask me if I was Japanese and I have had children ask me if I was Chinese.
A group of children were introducing another child to me, and the child got confused over whether I was a 미국인 or a 외국인, and asked what the difference was. I told the child that all 미국인's are 외국인's but not all 외국인's are 미국인's. I was going to explain further, but that seemed to be all the child could take in one dosage.
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| Koreans are shocked and amazed when foreigners speak Korean, while at the same time are dismayed when someone of Korean blood cannot speak the language for whatever reason (adoption abroad, emmigration, etc.). |
I was once at an October festival with a Chinese-American, who never cracked open a Korean book, and a Korean-American who knew so little Korean that she had to speak to Koreans in English. Guess which one the strangers grabbed on the shoulder and said, "캔아이헬프튜."
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| The Korean language is used to signal identity. |
I wondered why the dictionary listed "우리 나라" for Korea, "우리 말" for Korean, and "우리 나라 꽃" for Rose of Sharon.
Using Korean with a foreigner means that you are accepting him/her into the sphere of all things Korean. Using English, no matter the proficiency, signals that the relationship between the Korean and foreigners is ... well foreign.
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| If you study sociolinguistics you will see that a lot of research has been done on the topic of language choice. |
This is the first time I've ever heard all this.
For 9 years, I have been wondering why the Koreans treat me like an imbecile and all I've gotten was messages like "you're crazy," "you're paranoid," and "you got a chip on your shoulder."
Could you supply the documentation on this so I can study further?
Or if you don't have the documentation handy, could you write to your professor and ask?
I hate to impose on you, but I think you have the answer which I have been looking for for a long time. |
I think Kim Su Bok's post is interesting and right on the money and you're not paranoid at all just for noticing something strange about the Korean attitude. But that doesn't mean there aren't practical steps you can take to get around the problem of this attitudinal barrier, one of which is a language exchange.
The Korean attitude is slowly changing, but no need to wait for it to change completely before getting any Korean language practice. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| Privateer wrote: |
But that doesn't mean there aren't practical steps you can take to get around the problem of this attitudinal barrier, one of which is a language exchange.
The Korean attitude is slowly changing, but no need to wait for it to change completely before getting any Korean language practice. |
What's the major premise of your argument?
That the only way for a person to get Korean language practice is to join a language exchange?
That I'm not getting any Korean language practice because I won't join a language exchange?
You are currently ignoring two projects which I am currently involved in.
They are both keeping me quite busy right now.
One of those projects is the teaching Braille music to a blind second grade student.
Last Friday, he forgot to bring his materials to school.
So I spent a whole evening typing the materials again in case he forgets next Friday.
This project is important to me because:
■ It is rendering a valuable service to the child.
■ I like to learn new skills, and in this case, I am learning a new skill.
■ It is proving to the Korean people that I am intelligent and talented.
■ It is proving to the classroom teachers that I can teach Korean children without a Korean teacher breathing down my back and translating everything I say.
■ The child will be in one of my classes next year, and I use a lot of musical activities in my class.
■ I intend to teach the child to read English in Braille at that time. I hope that, by that time, he will have learned Braille music notation well enough that he will not confuse the two.
■ It involves someone I already know and am already loyal to.
The other project is sharing my knowledge of Italian opera with a fifth grade music student who wants to be an opera singer.
I am hoping that she will get some of her classmates interested, and we can then schedule a 방과 후 class in which we listen to Italian opera and learn some Italian.
So I spent much of the weekend writing a Korean plot synopsis of an Italian opera, and I'm still not even halfway through.
This project is important to me because:
■ It is rendering a valuable service to the child.
■ I would like to learn the Italian language better, and I would like to understand Italian opera better.
■ It might prove to the Korean people that I am intelligent and talented.
■ It might prove to the classroom teachers that I can teach Korean children without a Korean teacher breathing down my back and translating everything I say.
■ It might prove to the classroom teachers that I can teach a foreign language class without any use of a first language.
■ It involves someone I already know and am already loyal to.
These two projects leave very little time for the activity which you have chosen for me.
If you still think I should undertake the activity which you have chosen for me, just say the word.
I'll contact the second grade blind student and the fifth grade music student and tell both of them to go to hell. |
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Ginormousaurus
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Location: 700 Ft. Pulpit
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| tomato wrote: |
If you still think I should undertake the activity which you have chosen for me, just say the word.
I'll contact the second grade blind student and the fifth grade music student and tell both of them to go to hell. |
You are so dense.
Tomato, you're a victim. People are discriminating against you. They think you're more helpless than a baby, and by no means deserving of a chance to practice Korean. Everyone is out to get you. You would be fluent by now if only you could get a little respect from the Koreans you interact with on a daily basis. There, is that what you want to hear? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| tomato wrote: |
| Privateer wrote: |
But that doesn't mean there aren't practical steps you can take to get around the problem of this attitudinal barrier, one of which is a language exchange.
The Korean attitude is slowly changing, but no need to wait for it to change completely before getting any Korean language practice. |
What's the major premise of your argument?
That the only way for a person to get Korean language practice is to join a language exchange?
That I'm not getting any Korean language practice because I won't join a language exchange? |
No, I'm not saying the only way to get Korean language practice is to join a language exchange; I'm saying it's one way. That's why I used the phrase "one of which".
Nor am I saying that you're not getting any Korean language practice because you won't join a language exchange. I'm saying you might get more practice than at the moment if you tried one.
| tomato wrote: |
You are currently ignoring two projects which I am currently involved in.
They are both keeping me quite busy right now.
One of those projects is the teaching Braille music to a blind second grade student.
Last Friday, he forgot to bring his materials to school.
So I spent a whole evening typing the materials again in case he forgets next Friday.
This project is important to me because:
■ It is rendering a valuable service to the child.
■ I like to learn new skills, and in this case, I am learning a new skill.
■ It is proving to the Korean people that I am intelligent and talented.
■ It is proving to the classroom teachers that I can teach Korean children without a Korean teacher breathing down my back and translating everything I say.
■ The child will be in one of my classes next year, and I use a lot of musical activities in my class.
■ I intend to teach the child to read English in Braille at that time. I hope that, by that time, he will have learned Braille music notation well enough that he will not confuse the two.
■ It involves someone I already know and am already loyal to.
The other project is sharing my knowledge of Italian opera with a fifth grade music student who wants to be an opera singer.
I am hoping that she will get some of her classmates interested, and we can then schedule a 방과 후 class in which we listen to Italian opera and learn some Italian.
So I spent much of the weekend writing a Korean plot synopsis of an Italian opera, and I'm still not even halfway through.
This project is important to me because:
■ It is rendering a valuable service to the child.
■ I would like to learn the Italian language better, and I would like to understand Italian opera better.
■ It might prove to the Korean people that I am intelligent and talented.
■ It might prove to the classroom teachers that I can teach Korean children without a Korean teacher breathing down my back and translating everything I say.
■ It might prove to the classroom teachers that I can teach a foreign language class without any use of a first language.
■ It involves someone I already know and am already loyal to.
These two projects leave very little time for the activity which you have chosen for me.
If you still think I should undertake the activity which you have chosen for me, just say the word.
I'll contact the second grade blind student and the fifth grade music student and tell both of them to go to hell. |
You're saying there's no way you can find time in your week for both Korean language practice and these other projects you're involved in? If that's the case, then I agree teaching blind students seems more worthwhile. However, I find it hard to believe you can't fit a language exchange anywhere into your schedule, particularly when you always seem to have time to make long posts on Dave's, and particularly when most of said posts are complaints about the fact that you can't get any Korean language practice. Are you sure there's no way you can find any time in your week for a language exchange? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: Re: The sociolinguistics of language Choice |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| You're saying there's no way you can find time in your week for both Korean language practice and these other projects you're involved in? |
If you are contending that these two projects are not Korean language practice, then that is your premise, not mine.
I approached both mommies, telling them straightforwardly that I didn't want to be Anglophoned, and both mommies agreed.
I speak to the blind student in Korean and he answers me in Korean.
I wrote a letter to the fifth grade student in Korean and her mother sent me an e-mail back in Korean.
If you don't consider that Korean language practice, then I'd like to hear your definition of "Korean language practice."
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| If that's the case, then I agree teaching blind students seems more worthwhile. |
Good. I meant the last part of my last message as a sarcastic comment and I was afraid you'd take it as a promise.
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| However, I find it hard to believe you can't fit a language exchange anywhere into your schedule, particularly when you always seem to have time to make long posts on Dave's, |
I'm not entitled to any free time?
I certainly don't spend my free time any more foolishly than a lot of other wegukin's.
| Quote: |
| And particularly when most of said posts are complaints about the fact that you can't get any Korean language practice. |
If Yu-jin and Regina don't keep me busy enough, I'll trying to find someone else who doesn't demand English instruction in exchange.
I just moved to this town a couple of months ago, and there may be lots of opportunities for involvement which I haven't discovered yet.
Someone on another forum said that the best way to practice Korean is to find people who don't know English and don't want to know English.
See there? I'm not fighting the battle by myself, either.
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| Are you sure there's no way you can find any time in your week for a language exchange? |
Even if I did, it's none of your business.
I gave you a long list of activities whereby I have practiced Korean, and you said you're not interested in a single one of them.
I don't bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch because you won't take any of my suggestions, and I think turn about is fair play.
If this is the first time anybody has ever refused to jump when you said jump, welcome to the real world. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I'm not bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching, I'm trying and trying and trying and trying to communicate against your hostility and refusal to understand any other point of view. It's not my business but you've succeeded in making me curious, as you've succeeded in making every other person posting on your thread a bit curious.
If you're already getting all the language practice you need, then fair enough. I expect your Korean must be constantly improving then? If so, I have no more suggestions.
In my experience an increasing level of fluency and better pronunciation help to overcome the Korean resistance to Korean conversation with foreigners. If your level of fluency is increasing but it isn't helping then perhaps level of fluency isn't your problem. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| I'm not bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching, I'm trying and trying and trying and trying to communicate against your hostility . . . |
Ever heard Aesop's fable about the Sun and the Wind?
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| . . . and refusal to understand any other point of view. |
Then why did I try to get further information about Kim Subok's post?
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| . . . on your thread . . . |
This is not my thread.
If you turn back to the first page, you will see that this thread was started by another person who felt much the same way that I feel.
You will also see that the thread quickly attracted other people who felt much the same way that I feel.
If what I am expressing is a delusion, it is a mass delusion.
| Quote: |
| If you're already getting all the language practice you need, then fair enough. |
One activity in one setting, no matter how intensive, is not enough.
It is nature's way for a person to learn from the world which is all around him.
That is why a second language student needs to receive a steady supply of second language interchanges everywhere he goes.
In my first year in Korea, one of my students said, "안보여." I didn't understand what he meant. The next time I heard a student say that, there was no problem.
On another occasion, a shopkeeper said the word 내일 in such a way that the ㅐ sounded to me more like an ㅔ. Ever since then, I have been alert for ㅐ's which sound like 에's.
Just recently, I learned that the handcart which I use was called a 쿠르마--obviously a rare Japanese borrowing.
Do you see why I value one utterance in Korean more than a hundred 캔아이헬프유's?
| Quote: |
| In my experience an increasing level of fluency and better pronunciation help to overcome the Korean resistance to Korean conversation with foreigners. |
That works both ways.
Korean resistance to Korean conversation with foreigners causes limitation in fluency and pronunciation.
If a swimming instructor kept his students out of the water until they learned to swim, they would never learn to swim. |
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roadwork
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Location: Goin' up the country
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| On another occasion, a shopkeeper said the word 내일 in such a way that the ㅐ sounded to me more like an ㅔ. Ever since then, I have been alert for ㅐ's which sound like 에's. |
You are such a pretentious twit. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Ginormousaurus wrote: |
| Tomato only hears what he wants to hear. |
Let me test that statement right now.
Here is a list of the high points in this thread.
Please tell me if you find any errors, misinterpretations, or omissions:
▶ SuperHero said I was crazy.
Atavistic had similar words.
Young Frankenstein had similar words.
▶ shantaram said I was paranoid.
Underwaterbob had similar words.
▶ UnderwaterBob said I had a chip on my shoulder.
cunning stunt said I had a chip on my shoulder.
Not much to go on there.
How does one make constructive use of a pageful of invectives?
▶ Justin Hale said I should appreciate Fergusonians so long as they write in the just-trying-to-help-you clause.
▶ cunning stunt said he appreciates being Anglophoned, so why can't I.
▶ Yangachi said I needed to "chill."
▶ Steelrails said I needed to "lighten up" and "let it go."
▶ crash bang said I needed to "get over it."
▶ Ginormousaurus said I can speak Korean whether the other person speaks Korean or not, so I should bury my feelings.
T-J had similar words.
▶ T-J said that every conversation follows the path of least resistance, so I should bury my feelings if the Korean is more proficient than I am.
Steelrails had similar words.
▶ If I understood shantaram correctly, he implied that we are not entitled to Korean practice because we're English teachers.
Not much to go on here, either.
Emotions don't come equipped with an on-off switch.
▶ Atavistic said Koreans speak Korean to him, so 메에에엥롱!
SuperHero had similar words.
Ginormousaurus had similar words.
TheUrbanMyth had similar words.
UnderwaterBob had similar words.
I wish I could pay reverence to my wegukin superiors, but I'm too busy prostrating myself at the feet of every Fergusonian that I have to tolerate in the workplace.
▶ The Conservative implied that I had an exalted idea of my Korean proficiency.
capebretoncanadian had similar words.
▶ The Conservative said I deserved the punishment if I fail to communicate or fail to understand.
Ardis had similar words.
▶ I understood T-J to say that I don't have a legitimate complaint unless my Korean is on the level of a native speaker.
I don't see it that way.
I regard education as a right for everyone, not just a privilege for the elite.
What would you say if the public school system only admitted students who scored above a particular score on an IQ test?
▶ Young Frankenstein said I was going to give myself a coronary before I'm 40.
Thank you for the warning, but I'm well past 40 already.
And now for the suggested solutions:
▶ caniff suggested taking a vacation.
I agree. I haven't had a vacation in 9 years because I have been working in 학원's for 9 years. I finally got a public school job. I'll see if I get a vacation there.
▶ Cheonmunka suggested moving out to the boonies.
UnderwaterBob had similar words.
No sooner said than done.
The Fergusonian rate is lower here, but bad enough.
▶ Privateer said I should reallocate some of my computer time to studying Korean.
His words are even more true than he realizes.
I am an avid reader, constantly buying books on a wide variety of topics.
Besides that, I am an avid composer, and my musical compositions are as zany as my contributions on this thread.
I just have too many irons in the fire.
▶ The Conservative suggested pretending not to know English.
Yangachi had similar words.
capebretoncanadian had similar words.
I have been rehearsing for my gringo-hating Venezuelan schtick, but the thought flies away when the time comes.
Just yesterday, I got Anglophoned, but I couldn't think of a good comeback. So I just walked away.
▶ Jammer113 suggested writing a Korean diary thread on this forum.
I tried that, but somehow I forgot about it.
Maybe I should start that thread back up.
▶ Cheonmunka suggested becoming a TV celebrity.
That is certainly a pleasant thought, but one does not exactly get up one morning and say "Today, I am going to become a TV celebrity."
And now, finally:
▶ cunning stunt said I had a small winky.
▶ ds-fan said I needed to get laid.
Do these comments have some sort of relevance which I am missing?
Or are these merely ad hominem attacks? |
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