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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Nice strawman, Bacasper. By the way, do you notice how the pirates become Greenpeace-like environmental activists in this configuration? Nice touch. |
70% of Somalis think so. |
Maybe it's time for that 70% of Somalia to work together, form a unified government, maintain a military, and protect their waters then. It's hardly an impossible task.
Individual or small groups of pirates going out into the ocean and seizing vessels has precisely as much legal legitimacy as if you or I were to do the exact same thing off of the coast of America (namely, none at all). |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
A troll? Moi?
You cheeky bugger! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
Why is it necessary for people to gloat after killing someone? Maybe that what she was getting at? If that is indeed her position I can understand that. Something that is distasteful but needs to be done, should be done. But there's no need to gloat about killing someone, regardless of how badly they deserved it. To some people that's rather ghoulish. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
Why is it necessary for people to gloat after killing someone? Maybe that what she was getting at? If that is indeed her position I can understand that. Something that is distasteful but needs to be done, should be done. But there's no need to gloat about killing someone, regardless of how badly they deserved it. To some people that's rather ghoulish. |
You don't think after a victory celebrations ought to be in order? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
Why is it necessary for people to gloat after killing someone? Maybe that what she was getting at? If that is indeed her position I can understand that. Something that is distasteful but needs to be done, should be done. But there's no need to gloat about killing someone, regardless of how badly they deserved it. To some people that's rather ghoulish. |
You don't think after a victory celebrations ought to be in order? |
You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers (trying to negotiate their freedom) by the greatest naval power in the world is some great victory - something for national celebration? You must be desperate for victories then. Perhaps it some sort of national consolation after your lacklustre performance in Afghanistan and Iraq?
Poor show. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers (trying to negotiate their freedom) by the greatest naval power in the world is some great victory - something for national celebration? |
The saving of a life of a fellow citizen from individuals maliciously holding him at gun point is what most people care to celebrate, I suspect. What nation wouldn't be happy to have one of its citizens saved from such a situation? Obviously it would have been better if killing the pirates in question hadn't been necessary to achieve that, but when you take a weapon in hand and threaten another human being's life, you often leave little choice in the matter. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Maybe it's time for that 70% of Somalia to work together, form a unified government, maintain a military, and protect their waters then. It's hardly an impossible task.
Individual or small groups of pirates going out into the ocean and seizing vessels has precisely as much legal legitimacy as if you or I were to do the exact same thing off of the coast of America (namely, none at all). |
Except for the slight difference that America has a functioning (albeit dysfunctional) government. These are, for the most part, emergency and stopgap measures until and if one can be formed.
| BigBird wrote: |
| You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers (trying to negotiate their freedom) by the greatest naval power in the world is some great victory - something for national celebration? You must be desperate for victories then. Perhaps it some sort of national consolation after your lacklustre performance in Afghanistan and Iraq? |
US Aircraft and Elite Navy SEALs Defeat Three Somalis in a Lifeboat
USA! USA! USA!... |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Maybe it's time for that 70% of Somalia to work together, form a unified government, maintain a military, and protect their waters then. It's hardly an impossible task.
Individual or small groups of pirates going out into the ocean and seizing vessels has precisely as much legal legitimacy as if you or I were to do the exact same thing off of the coast of America (namely, none at all). |
Except for the slight difference that America has a functioning (albeit dysfunctional) government. These are, for the most part, emergency and stopgap measures until and if one can be formed. |
So pirates in this region are an emergency stop gap measure to intercept , seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa until a government can be formed and begin to formally intercept, seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa?
Any pirate that has seized a single ship not involved in fishing or dumping, and any pirate that has ransomed a single person under any circumstance, has moved beyond what you describe. What percentage of pirates do you think that leaves in your "stopgap coast guard" exactly?
Perhaps you should stop trying to conflate the two groups, and accept that when the rest of us talk about pirates, we are talking about the individuals who seize vessels not engaged in anything illegal and ransom their crews. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Maybe it's time for that 70% of Somalia to work together, form a unified government, maintain a military, and protect their waters then. It's hardly an impossible task.
Individual or small groups of pirates going out into the ocean and seizing vessels has precisely as much legal legitimacy as if you or I were to do the exact same thing off of the coast of America (namely, none at all). |
Except for the slight difference that America has a functioning (albeit dysfunctional) government. These are, for the most part, emergency and stopgap measures until and if one can be formed. |
So pirates in this region are an emergency stop gap measure to intercept , seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa until a government can be formed and begin to formally intercept, seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa?
Any pirate that has seized a single ship not involved in fishing or dumping, and any pirate that has ransomed a single person under any circumstance, has moved beyond what you describe. What percentage of pirates do you think that leaves in your "stopgap coast guard" exactly?
Perhaps you should stop trying to conflate the two groups, and accept that when the rest of us talk about pirates, we are talking about the individuals who seize vessels not engaged in anything illegal and ransom their crews. |
Perhaps you missed this subheading from a previous post of mine:
| bacasper wrote: |
| Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling |
Who's conflating now?
That some Somali pirates are gangsters does not excuse foreign pirates to dump and plunder. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. bcasper gets it. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Yea, like how the "Coast Guard" seized that Saudi tanker. (It wasn't dumping nuclear waste, was it?) Or should I place a few eye-roll emoticons here? |
Exactly. The pirates aren't attacking ships dumping waste. They attacked a ship full of food supplies for the rest of Africa!
I really don't understand Big Bird's position here. She's admitted that it might indeed have been necessary to kill the pirates (live hostages? ya think?), but she doesn't want people to gloat. What? I think its a pretty clear troll. |
Why is it necessary for people to gloat after killing someone? Maybe that what she was getting at? If that is indeed her position I can understand that. Something that is distasteful but needs to be done, should be done. But there's no need to gloat about killing someone, regardless of how badly they deserved it. To some people that's rather ghoulish. |
And TUM gets it. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| They celebrated the rescue, Big_Bird, not killing the pirates per se. As far as picking up that nuance, neither your source nor you get it, unfortunately. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling |
Who's conflating now?
That some Somali pirates are gangsters does not excuse foreign pirates to dump and plunder. |
If you feel I've mischaracterized you as conflating the two groups, I apologize. I'll take your word for it that you aren't.
Instead, I'll take issue with your use of "some" in the quote in question. When we say "some of <group x>" we usually aren't talking about a majority. Realistically, a solid majority of these pirates are gangsters. Perhaps a better word choice would have been "Most are clearly just gangsters." |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| They celebrated the rescue, Big_Bird, not killing the pirates per se. As far as picking up that nuance, neither your source nor you get it, unfortunately. |
That's what you like to think, Gopher, but you can not pretend to speak for all. In fact you are quite wrong about some. |
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