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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I was here, I was watching it every day on CN bloody N as I ran on my treadmill. And I can tell you they were hero-worshipping the rescuers as rescuers. And they were hero-worshipping the former captives. No more no less. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling |
Who's conflating now?
That some Somali pirates are gangsters does not excuse foreign pirates to dump and plunder. |
If you feel I've mischaracterized you as conflating the two groups, I apologize. I'll take your word for it that you aren't.
Instead, I'll take issue with your use of "some" in the quote in question. When we say "some of <group x>" we usually aren't talking about a majority. Realistically, a solid majority of these pirates are gangsters. Perhaps a better word choice would have been "Most are clearly just gangsters." |
Apology appreciated.
I am not sure how to quantify the proportion of "good" vs. "bad" pirates there are. But if the proportion were only, say, 10% "good," do you think 70% of Somalis would be supportive?
Even if it were 50% "good," does one "good" pirate = one "bad" one? Perhaps stopping a single ship from dumping radioactive waste is more valuable than a million dollar ransom paid to gangsters.
Obviously, hard data here is virtually impossible to come by, but I think we have each made our points. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Bird wrote: |
You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers (trying to negotiate their freedom) by the greatest naval power in the world is some great victory - something for national celebration? You must be desperate for victories then. Perhaps it some sort of national consolation after your lacklustre performance in Afghanistan and Iraq?
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Wow, talk about a big, giant, stinking strawman.
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| They celebrated the rescue, Big_Bird, not killing the pirates per se. As far as picking up that nuance, neither your source nor you get it, unfortunately. |
That's what you like to think, Gopher, but you can not pretend to speak for all. In fact you are quite wrong about some. |
She's clearly trolling, Gopher. She's reading into things that aren't there.
Look, Big Bird, I was happy when the Captain was rescued. The Captain did a heroic thing, offering himself up for the lives of his crew. Good karma rewarded him and he was rescued. Oh, n/m, it seems Fox understands where I'm coming from:
| Fox wrote: |
The saving of a life of a fellow citizen from individuals maliciously holding him at gun point is what most people care to celebrate, I suspect. |
Now, watch, everyone, I'm going to do what Big Bird just did above.
| Big Bird wrote: |
You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers (trying to negotiate their freedom) by the greatest naval power in the world is some great victory - something for national celebration? You must be desperate for victories then. Perhaps it some sort of national consolation after your lacklustre performance in Afghanistan and Iraq?
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Wait, you think the lives of soldiers who fought bravely in Afghanistan and Iraq are tokens to be used in an internet argument to score points? What kind of horrible person you must be!
[See people, its called trolling, any fool can do it, but you'll find some posters indulge in the habit particularly much] |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Maybe it's time for that 70% of Somalia to work together, form a unified government, maintain a military, and protect their waters then. It's hardly an impossible task.
Individual or small groups of pirates going out into the ocean and seizing vessels has precisely as much legal legitimacy as if you or I were to do the exact same thing off of the coast of America (namely, none at all). |
Except for the slight difference that America has a functioning (albeit dysfunctional) government. These are, for the most part, emergency and stopgap measures until and if one can be formed. |
So pirates in this region are an emergency stop gap measure to intercept , seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa until a government can be formed and begin to formally intercept, seize, and ransom the crews of vessels carrying food aid to the poor of Africa?
Any pirate that has seized a single ship not involved in fishing or dumping, and any pirate that has ransomed a single person under any circumstance, has moved beyond what you describe. What percentage of pirates do you think that leaves in your "stopgap coast guard" exactly?
Perhaps you should stop trying to conflate the two groups, and accept that when the rest of us talk about pirates, we are talking about the individuals who seize vessels not engaged in anything illegal and ransom their crews. |
Perhaps you missed this subheading from a previous post of mine:
| bacasper wrote: |
| Some are clearly just gangsters. But others are trying to stop illegal dumping and trawling |
Who's conflating now?
That some Somali pirates are gangsters does not excuse foreign pirates to dump and plunder. |
Yes. Just because Somalia has a weak embattled government does not mean it is open season for foreign nations to loot their waters.
Any lasting solution here must involve the policing of Somali waters for illegal trawling, waste dumping as well as piracy to be legitimate. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Kute Kuros wrote: |
I"m getting a bit cross with Big_Bird.  ] |
kiss kiss |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers... |
"Lightly armed". There it is, folks. Jamming a loaded gun into the back of another human being is OK as long as you are "lightly armed". |
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Draz
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Location: Land of Morning Clam
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| You think the vanquishing of 3 lightly-armed teenagers... |
"Lightly armed". There it is, folks. Jamming a loaded gun into the back of another human being is OK as long as you are "lightly armed". |
Found it!
But it doesn't matter if your gun is bigger in a hostage situation. It's why they took a hostage in the first place. Try to compensate for being greedy children with small guns.
Black Agenda Report is my first source for news too! This is the best part:
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| Black U.S. Congressman Donald Payne�s airplane was targeted by mortars when he visited Somalia�s ravaged capital, Mogadishu, over the weekend. Payne opposed the U.S.-Ethiopia invasion of Somalia, but some of the Islamist fighters battling for control of the country may not make distinctions among the foreigners who pass through or over their land � and who can blame them? |
I can't! Shoot at everything that gets close enough, I always say. |
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