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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Some form of socialism or capitalism with socialist influences is democratic whereas naked capitalism is not democratic. At the same time, people should not be given hand-outs and be allowed to stay on welfare and be unproductive. In the Netherlands people do well in school generally, and they are not taxed as much as Sweden. Finland has one of the highest scores in the OECD yet it has high taxes. New Hampshire is a more homogenous state when compared to Texas. You have an advantage when people of a state are rather homogenous. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Gotta love socialism |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Gotta love socialism |
Your average socialist needs to brush up on his wikipedia reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentives
In the Socialist Dominion (can't even say republic because technically we are still a colony) of NZ, there are 3rd generation life beneficiaries. Kids whose neither parents nor grandparents worked a day in their lives.
Government policy has utterly failed in over 75 years to lessen inequality. Mind you can you find a single example, world wide, where this isn't the case in the long term? |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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It should be noted this is a hypothetical, the author doesn't actually give specifics. (I hate to mention the fact the Daily Mail is so right-wing it supported Hitler)
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Government policy has utterly failed in over 75 years to lessen inequality. Mind you can you find a single example, world wide, where this isn't the case in the long term? |
People in Britain have equality of healthcare (and they live longer than Americans). This government policy has helped inequality.
(I'm still looking for a concise argument for socialism/social democracy that you can read.) |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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We have "equality" of health care in NZ, too. Unfortunately the system is utterly, utterly broken. Rationing of care, bureacrats who decide which treatments you are allowed to have, long waiting lists that often mean you die before you receive treatment. So, you pay through the nose for healthcare in your taxes but if you want to enjoy adequate health care you have to buy insurance anyway.
Free health care doesn't mean free at all. There are no free lunches in life.
I'm not very familar with the Korean system in much depth, but it seems to work a lot better. Although I suspect it is subsidised by high tax income in boom cycles and gets pushed to the wall in bust cycles. |
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DC in Suwon
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Even if all were equal, somebody would be getting more than the rest. This will cause greed, feelings of inequality, etc. Humans are animals (sorry religious folk), it's still all about survival. There is no way to make everyone equal. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| We have "equality" of health care in NZ, too. Unfortunately the system is utterly, utterly broken. Rationing of care, bureacrats who decide which treatments you are allowed to have, long waiting lists that often mean you die before you receive treatment. |
But people in New Zealand also live longer than those in America. Because of their capitalist health care system millions of people in America are left out of the system, they die relatively quickly and bring the average down.
[url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
[/url] |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| We have "equality" of health care in NZ, too. Unfortunately the system is utterly, utterly broken. Rationing of care, bureacrats who decide which treatments you are allowed to have, long waiting lists that often mean you die before you receive treatment. |
But people in New Zealand also live longer than those in America. Because of their capitalist health care system millions of people in America are left out of the system, they die relatively quickly and bring the average down.
[url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
[/url] |
Such aggregate statistics are meaningless.
Different ethnic groups have genetic differences in life expectancy.
To get a meaningful comparison, you must break down the statistics to compare by ethinicity within one nation to those of the same ethnicity within the nations being compared.
For example, what is the life expectancy of Koreans in America versus Koreans in SK and Koreans in other countries.
Try this, and you'll find the US is near the top for every group. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| To get a meaningful comparison, you must break down the statistics to compare by ethinicity within one nation to those of the same ethnicity within the nations being compared. |
Please do and post the results here. But while you're finding the statistics I'll stay with average life expectancy, seeing as each citizen in each country is equal this seems fine. You may also find out blacks in America have a lower life expectancy than whites....because of their DNA?....ummm...maybe not.
| ontheway wrote: |
| you'll find the US is near the top for every group. |
Sauce? |
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dporter
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: |
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[quote="RufusW"]
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
Redistribution of wealth creates equality of opportunity. For example, if you provide each child with education, healthcare and protection, they all have the same opportunity to have a fulfilling life. |
I'm guessing you have very little real world experience so let me help you out.
Even if you give everyone equal access not everyone will utilize that access. Most will make bad decisions. Its human nature. You can give everyone free health care but they will still eat at McDonalds. You can give them free education and they will stare out the window during class.
If there is no cost there is no motivation to utilize the resource properly. This is why private schools out perform public schools. It's not that private schools spend more money (cuz they don't) its that the family realizes there is a cost involved.
Make health care free for all and people will over utilize the resource (see Massachusetts.) Give people free blood pressure medicine and they will chase them with a 32 oz Coke.
It isnt the redistribution of wealth that creates a fulfilling life - its pride and a sense of personal responsibility. Those are things you don't get when you're given stuff for free. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:28 am Post subject: |
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[quote="dporter"]
| RufusW wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
Redistribution of wealth creates equality of opportunity. For example, if you provide each child with education, healthcare and protection, they all have the same opportunity to have a fulfilling life. |
I'm guessing you have very little real world experience so let me help you out.
Even if you give everyone equal access not everyone will utilize that access. Most will make bad decisions. Its human nature. You can give everyone free health care but they will still eat at McDonalds. You can give them free education and they will stare out the window during class.
If there is no cost there is no motivation to utilize the resource properly. This is why private schools out perform public schools. It's not that private schools spend more money (cuz they don't) its that the family realizes there is a cost involved.
Make health care free for all and people will over utilize the resource (see Massachusetts.) Give people free blood pressure medicine and they will chase them with a 32 oz Coke.
It isnt the redistribution of wealth that creates a fulfilling life - its pride and a sense of personal responsibility. Those are things you don't get when you're given stuff for free. |
Yup.
Humanity isn't equal. We must be treated equally by the state, but frankly some people are nucking futs. Some individuals have a very short term perspective. Entire cultures do not value formal education or the legal equality of women (any society that keeps women in cages like cattle will be less wealthy than a similar one that does not). We are just different.
And it just might be true that different groups of humans have different abilities (culture is stubborn). Why is it everywhere in the world Koreans go they do very well? Same for Japanese and Chinese (though not in Mao's China). Everywhere Somalians are, they are a gong show. (to see the difference google "Somali community" and "Korean community", in quotes, in news.google.com) I'm sorry, welfare and "socialism" will not fix this. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| dporter wrote: |
| I'm guessing you have very little real world experience so let me help you out. |
How do you have more/less experience than me? You're guessing. Are you a government offical, medical worker? Please explain.
| dporter wrote: |
| Even if you give everyone equal access not everyone will utilize that access....If there is no cost there is no motivation to utilize the resource properly. |
Yes, I agree, markets give incentive and regulation does reduce efficiency. But as mentioned multiple times in this thread, we're not talking either/or.
| dporter wrote: |
| It isnt the redistribution of wealth that creates a fulfilling life - its pride and a sense of personal responsibility. Those are things you don't get when you're given stuff for free. |
As above.
However, if a child is born into a poor family and isn't given government education/healthcare, they have a reduced opportunity to have a fulfilling life. We're talking about opportunity, they may not make the most of it, but at least their given a chance. If a free market reigned in education/healthcare poor children would be left to starve/work in subsistance level jobs. This is economic fact according to free markets. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Humanity isn't equal. We must be treated equally by the state... |
Good to hear, I presume you support Equality of Opportunity for those under the age of 18. Or not...?
| mises wrote: |
| Everywhere Somalians are, they are a gong show. (to see the difference google "Somali community" and "Korean community", in quotes, in news.google.com) |
Oh dear, if you don't realise the problem with this argument then I'm going to struggle relating with you. Do you think maybe there are structural differences in the population?
Furthermore, if people are "nucking futs" (beautiful), don't you think they deserve even more support than those who aren't (I'd argue it's comparable to physical disability) |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Somalians are a cultural backwater with little to zero respect for education.
| Quote: |
| I presume you support Equality of Opportunity for those under the age of 18. Or not...? |
If you're going to define equality of opportunity in your own weird way, then no. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Furthermore, if people are "nucking futs" (beautiful), don't you think they deserve even more support than those who aren't (I'd argue it's comparable to physical disability) |
What support? 3 squares and a rubber room? |
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