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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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 Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:17 pm Post subject: DPRK Invasion |
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Thanks nuthatch & bclassrambler. The academic debate is alive and well.
I've just spent an hour or so, browsing CCTV, Xinhua, Radio China websites etc & didn't find much. Bear in mind that China is still a communist country, without a free & open press. Many policies are implemented behind the scenes.
I found this article on the People's Daily:
Chinese gov't "resolutely opposes" DPRK's nuclear test
+ - 20:30, May 25, 2009
| Quote: |
China was resolutely opposed to the nuclear test by the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK), the Foreign Ministry said in Beijing in a statement Monday.
According to a report by the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA), the DPRK announced it successfully conducted an underground nuclear test on Monday.
"The DPRK ignored universal opposition of the international community and once more conducted the nuclear test. The Chinese government is resolutely opposed to it," the statement said.
It has been the firm and consistent stance of the Chinese government to achieve non-nuclearization on the Korean Peninsula and oppose proliferation of nuclear weapons in an effort to maintain peace and stability in northeast Asia, the statement stressed.
The statement voiced a strong demand that the DPRK live up to its commitment to non-nuclearization on the Korean Peninsula, stop any activity that might worsen the situation and return to the track of the six-party talks.
The statement noted that maintaining peace and stability in northeast Asia region conformed to the common interests of all parties concerned, called for a calm response from all parties concerned and urged them to pursue peaceful resolution of the issue through consultation and dialogue.
China would continue its unremitting efforts to this end, the statement added.
According to a statement released by the KCNA, the DPRK government said the test was "part of [its] measures to bolster its nuclear deterrent for self-defense in every way, as requested by its scientists and technicians."
The brief statement gave no details about the test, including its location.
Officials in the Republic of Korea said earlier Monday that an "artificial earthquake" was detected near the northeastern town of Kilju, about 10 km from the site where the DPRK staged its first nuclear test in October 2006. |
Source: Xinhua
http://paper.people.com.cn/rmrb/html/2009-05/26/content_261110.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6665355.html
Also found this in the Washington Post:
"Anger May Help Bring New U.N. Sanctions"
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BEIJING, May 27 -- China's leaders have shown their anger over North Korea's nuclear and missile tests this week through unusually critical statements and harsh coverage in China's state media. Now, U.S. officials hope the sharp rhetoric will translate into support in the U.N. Security Council for new sanctions on North Korea.
The Chinese Foreign Ministry has admonished North Korea, saying it is "resolutely opposed" to the tests. Official news reports have proclaimed that China is "shocked" by its neighbor's defiance and that it "demands" an end to "any activity that might worsen the situation."
Since North Korea conducted a second underground nuclear test on Monday and fired five short-range missiles into the waters off its east coast on Monday and Tuesday, academics at Chinese think tanks and other research centers affiliated with the Chinese government have begun to discuss publicly what had previously been unthinkable: cutting off food or fuel aid to North Korea and supporting other harsh sanctions at the United Nations.
North Korean leader Kim Jong Il has "gone too far," said Zhang Liangui, a professor at the Institute of Strategy at the Central Party School in Beijing.
"The nuclear test conducted by North Korea offended the core interests of China," Zhang said in an interview. "Since Kim Jong Il doesn't attach importance to China, it's hard to say if China will continue to keep a friendly relationship with North Korea in the future."
The United States has long sought help from China, North Korea's largest trading partner, in pressuring North Korea's reclusive leaders to give up their nuclear ambitions. But China has tried to win North Korea's cooperation through favors, such as construction of a glass factory, and has blocked sanctions pushed by Washington. The United States failed to win tougher international penalties after North Korea's first nuclear test, in 2006, in part because of Chinese resistance.
U.S. officials say they sense a different tone in China's response this time. But China has not yet made clear what position it will take in the U.N. Security Council, where negotiations are underway on a possible resolution against North Korea. "The Chinese are deeply exasperated, but we have to see what they are prepared to do," an Obama administration official said.
"We will see if it results in a substantive difference in New York," another U.S. official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of diplomatic considerations.
Details of the proposed sanctions have not been made public. But some Chinese analysts said the U.N. resolution could take aim at North Korea's military.
The events of the past few days are probably "the most serious crisis since China and North Korea set up diplomatic relations," Zhang said. "Without military sanctions, North Korea is afraid of nothing. So, this time, military sanctions should be regarded as one option."
Wang Fan, an international security expert at China Foreign Affairs University, told the official China Daily that at this point, China "cannot oppose" possible U.N. sanctions against North Korea. And the Global Times, which has close ties to the Chinese Communist Party, said this week that it had surveyed 20 international relations experts in China and that half supported tough sanctions.
Even before Monday's nuclear test, there were signs that Beijing was losing patience with Pyongyang. In recent months, China increased the number of troops along its border with North Korea, made it more difficult for North Koreans to get Chinese visas and cracked down on illicit activities by North Koreans in China.
Some experts contend, however, that China's tough talk is probably a scare tactic and that it is unlikely China will support tough U.N. sanctions.
Liu Jiangyong, a professor of Northeast Asia studies at Tsinghua University, predicts no real change in China's policy. If China joins other nations in coming down harshly on North Korea, he said, "the role of China will be changed from a contact man to the enemy of North Korea." It is in everybody's interest for China to keep a steady relationship with North Korea, he added, because otherwise no country will have regular contact with Pyongyang. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/25/AR2009052501672.html
IMHO, the jury is still out, on exactly what, (if anything), China will do. So far, all the signs are promising, that it will be more than just talk. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
Captain Corea, the negative argumentative style that you so often employ of continuously prodding the ball in the other person's court, keeping the onus on them to prove something about their point without actually saying so much yourself, is one which I'll admit is very effective on internet forums, such as this one. Obviously, the other party invariably gets tired and will often just give up. (I'm less convinced of its merits in a real life face to face situation, but that's neither here nor there.)
Above you've repeatedly asked chris to support what he was saying with something from a Chinese source. He's done that several times and all you've done in response is to sit back and effectively say, 'sorry, not what I was looking for, try again'. Some would describe that as just conveniently moving the goalposts.
Of course, it's perfectly valid not to accept what he offers in support of his case. But, you were the one who made the "like lips and teeth" remark above. So why not say clearly whether YOU believe that's still as true as when Mao originally said it, and come up with something to back up what you say, preferably from a Chinese source? |
What I believe is this; we don't know the exact relationship between China and the DPRK and anyone stating with certainty regarding their commitments to each other is most likely guessing.
I haven't been moving any goal posts - I've been asking for an official Chinese source - one that shows clearly whether the relationship is strong or not.
Posting what a few professors say is NOT what I am asking for. I can go through pretty near any country on the planet and find sources about all sorts of things professors say. Professors talk, that's their job.
Chris wrote:
| chris_J2 wrote: |
A huge difference between the 1950-53, & 2009 conflict(s)?, which appears to have been almost totally overlooked, is that China & Russia were supporting DPRK, both directly & indirectly in the Korean War, in a proxy Cold War against the US. This time, the pariah state of DPRK, is almost totally on its own. China has only to cut off all oil, water, food, & munitions supplies, & it's all over in a matter of days, if not hours.
The DPRK has successfully alienated both China & Russia, in the past week. |
And I said "If it was the China daily quoting an official news release from Hu stating that the nuclear tests have gravely damaged the relationship, and that they are not only rescinding their mutual aid agreements, but also blockading fuel exports - THEN you would have something. But right now, all it is is two professors hypothesizing."
Chris has used the words 'scathing' and 'China's anger'... but official quotes like:
| Quote: |
| "China's stance on the issue is consistent," he said, "We are opposed to nuclear proliferation." |
don't seem all that scathing to me. 'Miffed' might be closer, but even then, I'd be casting emotion onto an otherwise bland and generic statement.
The lips and teeth remark was made a year or so back, and I have little reason to see it changed. If there is action from China against the DPRK, I'd welcome it, but so far, there's been next to nothing.
The goal post is simple, show "that the DPRK is on its own". |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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On a more personal note:
| Quote: |
| Captain Corea, the negative argumentative style that you so often employ of continuously prodding the ball in the other person's court, keeping the onus on them to prove something about their point without actually saying so much yourself |
I do this when someone makes an assertion. When someone says XYZ, I ask them to back it up. If you cannot back up said assertion, it's nothing more than an opinion - and that's fine, but people should know that.
Speaking of assertions that are rarely backed up, welcome to the thread nuthatch. Are you planning on joining us constructively? Or are you going to dodge the questions like on the previous thread?
Last edited by Captain Corea on Sat May 30, 2009 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris, do you notice the difference in language in your sourcing? Your Western sources use terms like 'anger', while the Chinese ones seem much less emotional. |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| nuthatch wrote: |
b-class ramber:
| Quote: |
Captain Corea, the negative argumentative style that you so often employ of continuously prodding the ball in the other person's court, keeping the onus on them to prove something about their point without actually saying so much yourself, is one which I'll admit is very effective on internet forums, such as this one. Obviously, the other party invariably gets tired and will often just give up. (I'm less convinced of its merits in a real life face to face situation, but that's neither here nor there.)
Above you've repeatedly asked chris to support what he was saying with something from a Chinese source. He's done that several times and all you've done in response is to sit back and effectively say, 'sorry, not what I was looking for, try again'. Some would describe that as just conveniently moving the goalposts.
Of course, it's perfectly valid not to accept what he offers in support of his case. But, you were the one who made the "like lips and teeth" remark above. So why not say clearly whether YOU believe that's still as true as when Mao originally said it, and come up with something to back up what you say, preferably from a Chinese source? |
agree with you, b-class rambler....nicely said |
Thank you, but let me stress, nuthatch, that your own issues with any other poster are yours alone.
In your own argument with CC on another recent related thread, it did seem to me that it was you who was doing the dodging. You were asked certain key questions in the discussion that didn't require any more than a simple answer, which led to you then suddenly disappearing, in spite of previously having had apparently plenty of time to continuously cut and paste the same stuff, making the same point, from the same source over and over again. What I was referring to above on this thread is totally different. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I haven't been moving any goal posts - I've been asking for an official Chinese source - one that shows clearly whether the relationship is strong or not. |
Xinhua & Peoples Daily ARE official Chinese sources. The article clearly shows the relationship between China & DPRK has been damaged in the past few weeks.
| Quote: |
| Posting what a few professors say is NOT what I am asking for. |
China is not the US, with an open & accountable free press. All of those academic professors, have very close links to the Chinese Government. They would quickly be muzzled, if they started spouting anything that didn't toe the Party line. Or am I missing something here?
Last edited by chris_J2 on Sat May 30, 2009 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nuthatch
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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well excuse me
with regard to what you are speaking of...I felt like I posted much earlier in the thread and did not want to get into the aggressiveness asserted by some posters...i had nothing more to say ... it had already been said...I don't need to answer neurotic behavior |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I haven't been moving any goal posts - I've been asking for an official Chinese source - one that shows clearly whether the relationship is strong or not. |
1. Xinhua & Peoples Daily ARE official Chinese sources. The article clearly shows the relationship between China & DPRK has been damaged in the past few weeks.
| Quote: |
| Posting what a few professors say is NOT what I am asking for. |
2. China is not the US, with an open & accountable free press. All of those academic professors, have very close links to the Chinese Government. They would quickly be muzzled, if they started spouting anything that didn't toe the Party line. Or am I missing something here? |
1. I guess it boils down to opinion, man. Out of those Chinese news sources you provided, I saw no emotion and very little of a scathing rebuke. I would not say at all that it clearly shows anything. China has been fairly consistant in its wording regarding Nuclear advancement on the peninsula by their own admission - and yet they continue to support the North in a variety of ways.
2. Academic Professors speak out in China all the time. Sometimes against the Gov, sometimes for it... sometimes just neutrally. Some lose their jobs, some get transferred, some get pats on the back. I don't think that either of us know what exactly is going on with the sources you quoted. Were they encouraged? Reprimanded? Ignored? What if the DPRK puts up a real fuss the next time the Chinese minister meets and requests that they are sacked... what would happen? Simply put, we don't know.
| nuthatch wrote: |
| well excuse me |
You're excused. Now, do you have something constructive to add?  |
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b-class rambler
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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CC, thanks for the honest response, which I did expect from you. I don't always agree with what you say on here (although often I do) or with your style, but I do respect you as a poster who doesn't stoop to the convenient disappearing act and I hope you didn't take what I said too personally.
Back to the issue....
| Captain Corea wrote: |
What I believe is this; we don't know the exact relationship between China and the DPRK and anyone stating with certainty regarding their commitments to each other is most likely guessing.
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I think that's fair enough. In fact, it's true of so much involving the DPRK, with or without Chinese involvement, that we simply don't know for sure and people claiming they do are just guessing.
But surely you have to say the same about your 'lips and teeth' remark. It's just a guess on your part. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| b-class rambler wrote: |
| CC, thanks for the honest response, which I did expect from you. I don't always agree with what you say on here (although often I do) or with your style, but I do respect you as a poster who doesn't stoop to the convenient disappearing act and I hope you didn't take what I said too personally. |
Not in the least man. You made an accurate observation, and I hope that i explained why I often take that strategy.
| Quote: |
Back to the issue....
| Captain Corea wrote: |
What I believe is this; we don't know the exact relationship between China and the DPRK and anyone stating with certainty regarding their commitments to each other is most likely guessing.
|
I think that's fair enough. In fact, it's true of so much involving the DPRK, with or without Chinese involvement, that we simply don't know for sure and people claiming they do are just guessing.
But surely you have to say the same about your 'lips and teeth' remark. It's just a guess on your part. |
Agreed. The DPRK is an enigma, wrapped in a secret, hidden in mandu. So, unless strong evidence to the contrary exists, I'm prone to believe the worst in most situations. And in this situation, the worst (in my mind) would be China siding with the DPRK either covertly or overtly and pushing the South to war.
The best situation would be for China to join us in dragging the North kicking and screaming into the modern age. But, I'll believe that when i see it. |
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nuthatch
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You're excused. Now, do you have something constructive to add? |
you can post your opinions in your own "style" but leave the personal attacks out |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| nuthatch wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You're excused. Now, do you have something constructive to add? |
you can post your opinions in your own "style" but leave the personal attacks out |
A few things;
1. That was not a personal attack. If you honestly believe it was, feel free to report me. You said "well excuse me". and I said that you were excused. If you honestly think that is a personal attack, you're more paranoid than I thought.
2. Do you have any constructive to add to this thread? So far, you haven't added anything - and that's why I ask. The only thing I've seen you do is to try to jump on what you thought was a bandwagon against me (possibly because of the spanking you received on another thread the other day), only to find yourself thrown off. So I'll ask again, do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion, or are you just here to cheer against me? |
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nuthatch
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: |
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you might want to stop acting like a control freak who demands people to add something constructive to your dribble. Ya think you are the moderator or something?
there is no need for your denigrating language either |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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CC, I concede your point about emotive language, but did you even read the 'Peoples Daily' article?
"The statement voiced a strong demand that the DPRK live up to its commitment to non-nuclearization on the Korean Peninsula, stop any activity that might worsen the situation and return to the track of the six-party talks."
Not a request, a demand. Additionally, 'Resolutely opposed' also sounds a lot stronger, than just a mild rebuke, to me. And I've already given you several examples, where China has acted against DPRK this year. If you choose to ignore them, that's your prerogative. But it doesn't strenghthen your position/argument.
And a link to "the lips & teeth" article of a year or 2 ago, that you refer to, would be good. b-class rambler has a point. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| nuthatch wrote: |
you might want to stop acting like a control freak who demands people to add something constructive to your dribble. Ya think you are the moderator or something?
there is no need for your denigrating language either |
So, you accuse me of personal insults, and when I show you there was none, you... insult me personally.
You know what, I'm pretty thick skinned so I'm not going to bother tradding insults with you, but I will ask you this; if you don't have anything to add to the topic, why do you keep posting on it??
| chris_J2 wrote: |
CC, I concede your point about emotive language, but did you even read the 'Peoples Daily' article?
"The statement voiced a strong demand that the DPRK live up to its commitment to non-nuclearization on the Korean Peninsula, stop any activity that might worsen the situation and return to the track of the six-party talks."
Not a request, a demand. Additionally, 'Resolutely opposed' also sounds a lot stronger, than just a mild rebuke, to me. And I've already given you several examples, where China has acted against DPRK this year. If you choose to ignore them, that's your prerogative. But it doesn't strenghthen your position/argument.
And a link to "the lips & teeth" article of a year or 2 ago, that you refer to, would be good. b-class rambler has a point. |
Yeah, I must say, the word 'demand' seems to be the strongest I've heard out of China. Keep in mind though that the word 'demand' was not in the official Chinese statement to the DPRK, but rather commentary about the statement by the newspaper itself. I'd love to see the Chinese officially demand something from the DPRK (honestly).
As for my 'lips and teeth', I believe it was on a vist from Kim to China in 2006 or 7... I'll hunt for it...
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/6256912.html
| Quote: |
| Feng Zuoku, vice president of the Chinese People's Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries (CPAFFC), said at the reception that China and the DPRK are friendly neighbors which are joined by common mountains and rivers and as close as lips and teeth. |
http://english.people.com.cn/200507/13/eng20050713_195734.html
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reception was held in Beijing on July 12 to mark the 44th anniversary for the signing of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Mutual Assistance between China and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).
Addressing the reception, Chen Haosu, president of the Chinese People's Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries (CPAFFC), said China and the DPRK are close neighbors just like lips and teeth.The Sino-DPRK traditional friendship nurtured by the elder generation of leaders of the two countries has become rooted in the hearts of people in both countries.
He said the treaty has withstood the test of time since it was signed 44 years ago, and has made an important contribution to maintaining regional peace and development.
Cementing the China-DPRK traditional friendship is an unswerving principle of the Communist Party of China (CPC) and the Chinese government, as well as a sincere wish of the Chinese people, he said.
DPRK Ambassador to China Choe Jin Su said the two countries have supported each other and conducted cooperation in various fields since they signed the treaty 44 ago.
He said he believes the Sino-DPRK friendship will continue to be strengthened in the new century.
Signed in Beijing on July 11, 1961, the treaty aims at cementing the two countries' friendly, cooperative and mutual-aid relations, jointly ensuring the security of the two peoples, and maintaining and consolidating peace in Asia and the world. |
http://www.bt.com.bn/en/asia_news/2009/03/20/hu_meets_n_korean_pm
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| Hu, meanwhile, pledged to further shore up a relationship long described by China as being as "close as lips and teeth." |
http://www.nautilus.org/DPRKBriefingBook/china/PRC_Takahashi.html
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| Chun wang chi han literally means that without your lips, your teeth will become cold. This means if North Korea has troubles, China also suffers from them. The diplomat interviewed pointed out China's geographical and geopolitical closeness to North Korea, particularity referring to recent mass movements of refugees from North Korea - more than 460 last July. |
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