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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not against the use of horrific footage/images to deter war crimes by the way. I'm just concerned about unnecessary pain and shame inflicted on the men women and children who have already suffered rape and having to suffer further humiliation and exposure.
Here is some horrific footage that I think people ought to see.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq2008/family%20two%20children%20killed.htm
This is a family in Afghanistan being blown apart. If you look, it is very clear that two of the figures are very small. They are watched by American personel for a couple of minutes and it is clear there are two very small people - it's impossible not to assume they are children. Then the missile if fired and there is a heartbreaking moment as you watch a terrified survivor fleeing and hide behind a tree. That stuff should have been shown on national TV in the US. Make voters think twice before they cheer a President presiding over such revolting violence (it made me sick when Bush was voted in again in 2004). Not a one off unfortunately. Thousands of innocent civilians have died on the receiving end of various US and NATO weaponry. |
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DC in Suwon
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I am not surprised anymore of the fallacies of humankind. It's been going on as far back as we know and will continue to go on forever. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| They say that the trauma is much worse for those victims of sexual assault whose photos make it onto the internet, or simply if those photos are lost and remain existing where the victim can not have them destroyed/removed forever from potential viewing. The crime is never in the past. It becomes a constant ever present knowledge, and victims find it far more difficult (even impossible) put it behind them to the extent the average 'private' victim eventually can (although of course the rape victim who can put it completely behind them is a rare case indeed). |
This is the typical tripe put forward by practitioners of the bastard discipline of victimology. |
You are talking tripe.
This is researched and documented by serious psychologists (not just amatuer fantasists like yourself). I'm not going to google up articles because I have an assignment due and you can do it just as well as I can. But it has been written about and I have read about it on several occasions. |
But you had time to google up the stories below, which are about victims being forced to watch the films of their ordeals and hence strawmen, and not about some stranger happening to see a photo of it of which the victim is not even aware.
Admit it, the reason you canot find any such thing is because "photographic trauma" does not exist.
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| Sex abuse victims who are aware that there are pictures or footage of them suffer extra trauma, and can not find closure in the way the might if they were unaware of the existence of any footage. |
When you get time, I'd really love to see your "extra trauma" sources. I can wait.
Or do you mean this?
A rape victim screamed in agony
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| Stop! Stop! You're hurting me! And you won't even let me fix my hair! |
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| While one is being brutally raped, the last thing one cares about is if someone is taking a picture. |
What is your point? That it's OK to take pictures then? Anyway you are wrong. Everything about a rape is horrible, and if you knew you were having your photo taken you don't think this would be an added touch of horror? |
You can strawman me all you like, but obviously if it is not OK to rape, it is not OK to photograph.
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| I don't want to discuss this anymore with you bcasper, because what you just wrote amazed me. |
Thank you for letting us konw that you are too emotionally invested in this issue to discuss it rationally. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: |
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The links were already on hand.
The subject is interesting, and the ethical dilemma worthy of debate. It's not the subject I don't want to engage with, it's you.
As for being being emotional, I found it interesting that you had such a violent knee-jerk reaction to my earlier post. A very jerky action in indeed. This subject seems close to your heart, old boy. Which is a little creepy. |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
The links were already on hand.
The subject is interesting, and the ethical dilemma worthy of debate. It's not the subject I don't want to engage with, it's you.
As for being being emotional, I found it interesting that you had such a violent knee-jerk reaction to my earlier post. A very jerky action in indeed. This subject seems close to your heart, old boy. Which is a little creepy. |
play nice, svp. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:08 am Post subject: |
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This was the issue as originally framed by Big Bird:
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| They say that the trauma is much worse for those victims of sexual assault whose photos make it onto the internet, or simply if those photos are lost and remain existing where the victim can not have them destroyed/removed forever from potential viewing. |
The links she then provides are to accounts of victims being forced to relive their rapes by looking at the photos or films, a completely different issue.
Let the record be clear. |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I'm not against the use of horrific footage/images to deter war crimes by the way. I'm just concerned about unnecessary pain and shame inflicted on the men women and children who have already suffered rape and having to suffer further humiliation and exposure.
Here is some horrific footage that I think people ought to see.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq2008/family%20two%20children%20killed.htm
This is a family in Afghanistan being blown apart. If you look, it is very clear that two of the figures are very small. They are watched by American personel for a couple of minutes and it is clear there are two very small people - it's impossible not to assume they are children. Then the missile if fired and there is a heartbreaking moment as you watch a terrified survivor fleeing and hide behind a tree. That stuff should have been shown on national TV in the US. Make voters think twice before they cheer a President presiding over such revolting violence (it made me sick when Bush was voted in again in 2004). Not a one off unfortunately. Thousands of innocent civilians have died on the receiving end of various US and NATO weaponry. |
War is violence.
Violence is war.
That is the way of the world.
That is the way it is, to say other wise is to admit to being delusional.
Live long and prosper. |
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lithium
Joined: 18 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Big Bird wrote:
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| I think this is a case for not making the photos public. Would you want your cruel degradation (or that of a loved one) all over the internet for the whole world to see? |
I disagree. The imperative to protect the victims is outweighed by the imperative to let people know just what happened, so as to prevent the same sort of thing from happening again. As long as these photos remain hidden, the Bush apologists will just continue with their "frathouse hijinx" spin on the crimes, and a lot of people will keep on falling for it, because they haven't seen the pictures with their own eyes. |
OR you just like looking at crap like that. Nothing good for AMERICA can result from them being released. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| lithium wrote: |
| Nothing good for AMERICA can result from them being released. |
Oh well, that's all OK then. What is good for America is the yardstick used to measure everything in the whole world. Let's hide all this nastiness and go back to torture as usual. It's been going on for so long that it's almost a tradition! |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I find it interesting how ones perception of Bush vs Obama could possibly color ones' view on this.
I can easily imagine how the majority on this board simply believed the pictures had to be shown because hey, Bush was a tyrannical, war mongering, bigoted, jesus freak fool.
A lot of those same people may be willing to give Obama a pass on this because he is seen to be a rational, open minded, secular and fair kind of guy.
When it comes down to it though, if you wanted those pictures released when Bush was in power you should still want them to be released now. Anyone who flip flops on this issue because of who is in currently in office deserves nothing but scorn. While I personally like the guy, Obama doesn't deserve a pass on this.
Does anyone believe that Obama couldn't forsee the danger to American troops if these photos were released under that Bush administration yet came out swinging for their release?
Now he is saying that since HE personally recieved that very same warning he has now thoughtfully considered it and decided against releasing the photos?
Obama - 2pts |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:31 am Post subject: |
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"... and then they showed that awful film, and it just spoiled everything."
- Hermann Goering
at Nuremberg |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I'm not against the use of horrific footage/images to deter war crimes by the way. I'm just concerned about unnecessary pain and shame inflicted on the men women and children who have already suffered rape and having to suffer further humiliation and exposure.
Here is some horrific footage that I think people ought to see.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq2008/family%20two%20children%20killed.htm
This is a family in Afghanistan being blown apart. If you look, it is very clear that two of the figures are very small. They are watched by American personel for a couple of minutes and it is clear there are two very small people - it's impossible not to assume they are children. Then the missile if fired and there is a heartbreaking moment as you watch a terrified survivor fleeing and hide behind a tree. That stuff should have been shown on national TV in the US. Make voters think twice before they cheer a President presiding over such revolting violence (it made me sick when Bush was voted in again in 2004). Not a one off unfortunately. Thousands of innocent civilians have died on the receiving end of various US and NATO weaponry. |
I'm wondering how you know that this was U.S. forces and not a staged show by insurgents? |
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chickenpie
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently they don't just show rape, they show child rape....
Well done USA. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Who would bring a camera to these things?
Soldier 1: "Hey Alvin, lets go mess with some prisoners today at the Abu."
Soldier 2: "Great idea! I almost got caught by the brass the other day."
Soldier 1: "You idiot. If we get caught we're going to be in deep doodoo."
Soldier 2: "No kidding. We gotta be more careful. Lets go! I got a new idea to use."
Soldier 1: "Sweet. Don't forget your camera!"
Are the people really that stupid? I guess so since there are pictures of all these acts happening. They shouldn't have happened in the first place, and it is disgusting that it DID happen. But to take pictures of it? What a bunch of freaking idiots. |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| What a bunch of freaking idiots. |
And their sentences should be doubled. That would give them enough time to grab a brain. |
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