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Doctor Killed by Anti-Abortionist
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eperdue4ad

Joined: 22 May 2006

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject:

djsmnc wrote:

However, a question that I htink should come up here is: What is different between someone having an abortion or self inducing an unwanted pregnancy and leaving the baby in a dumpster somewhere (a scenario that plays itself out every so often)? Why does the latter go to jail and the former get to go home and watch tv?

If you mean how are the two ethically different, I'm not touching it, but the legal difference is that a woman isn't considered to have broken any law if she has an abortion with a licensed physician.

Each state's different but since Tiller was operating in Kansas:

Kansas 65-6703
Chapter 65.--PUBLIC HEALTH
Article 67.--ABORTION

(c) A woman upon whom an abortion is performed shall not be prosecuted under this section for a conspiracy to violate this section pursuant to K.S.A. 21-3302, and amendments thereto.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to create a right to an abortion. Notwithstanding any provision of this section, a person shall not perform an abortion that is prohibited by law.

Since late-term is legal under a physician's care, no laws broken by the woman.

vonjunk

Joined: 31 Jan 2007

Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I have to agree that as it is part of a conscious adult woman's body, it is up to her alone as an individual to decide what to do based on what she perceives the fetus/unborn child to be. It's really up to her to decide and face whatever guilt or potential after-life judgment she may face

So you personally are against abortion, but leave that "right" to someone else to decide?
If I said to you, "Well, I am not pro-rape, I'm just pro-choice about rape." does that make any sense? In a way, I would be saying that rape doesn't really harm anyone and in fact sometimes is justifiable. Therefore, you can not dodge the bullet and "to be pro-choice about rape is to be pro-rape."
Don't want abortion, don't have one. This an equally weak approach that a person would have towards playing baseball, what to eat but not concerning things like torture, rape, kidnapping, and murder.

Abortion is wrong because it's killing a child and there is no reason good enough to kill a child.

Seeing my wife's ultrasounds of my child close up. Truly amazing how they grow up. I could feel him moving around in her tummy and he even gave me a karate chop. I could never imagine aborting a child...and I'll leave it at that.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:02 am Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

Yo, Fox! The question was did he claim a religious purpose for the killing, not did he claim that he killed.

And that's the question I responded to. I don't know if he claimed a religious purpose for doing it, but I have no doubts he had one. If you do, well, you're welcome to those doubts.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Doctor Killed by Anti-Abortionist

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Fox wrote:

As noted here, a doctor who was evidently fairly notorious for abortions has been killed by an anti-abortion activist, in his own church no less.

Yet another sad example of religion-driven terrorism.

As noted in your own link, it did not say that that shooter was an anti-abortion activist or had any ties to said groups.

Yes, the link said only that they were investigating any links to anti-abortion groups, not that he actually had such links. None the less, it's patently obvious to one's intuition that he was an anti-abortion activist, regardless of any links he may or may not had to anti-abortion groups.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:12 am Post subject:

vonjunk wrote:

So you personally are against abortion, but leave that "right" to someone else to decide?
If I said to you, "Well, I am not pro-rape, I'm just pro-choice about rape." does that make any sense?

Of course it makes sense. Rape would be a very strange thing to express that about given the nature of the crime in question, but the ideological formation of "I'm not pro <x>, I'm just pro-choice about <x>," makes total sense and can be applied to quite a few things, from the trivial to the serious.

Hell, I'm decidedly against mayonaise (I think it's disgusting, harmful to one's overall health, and honestly I find the fact that my fellow citizens ingest it embarassing and disgusting), but I'm pro-choice about mayonaise consumption (I don't feel people should be prevented from eating it, despite my own adversion to it).

Yes, it makes sense.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:06 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

Yo, Fox! The question was did he claim a religious purpose for the killing, not did he claim that he killed.

And that's the question I responded to.

Then you may wish to hone your sentence construction skills a tad.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:15 am Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

Fox wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

Yo, Fox! The question was did he claim a religious purpose for the killing, not did he claim that he killed.

And that's the question I responded to.

Then you may wish to hone your sentence construction skills a tad.

I am sorry you had a hard time understanding.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:21 am Post subject:

I have no problem whatsoever understanding intelligible posts.

vonjunk

Joined: 31 Jan 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:22 am Post subject:

Quote:

Hell, I'm decidedly against mayonaise (I think it's disgusting, harmful to one's overall health, and honestly I find the fact that my fellow citizens ingest it embarassing and disgusting), but I'm pro-choice about mayonaise consumption (I don't feel people should be prevented from eating it, despite my own adversion to it).

You are a Foxy one Fox, but if you bothered to read my post I answer such logic. You bring up mayonaise as an equal to having an abortion. Again, it is vastly different.
The life and death of a child can not be so easily dealt with and the choice of condiments.

So, how about this one, "I'm not for the holocaust, but I'm pro-choice about it."
Make any sense?
I hope not. Some topics are much too grim to go a middle way. Just how it is mate.

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:10 pm Post subject:

Most of these late-term abortions were performed with good reason.

Do you want to have a severely sick deformed child who is condemned to live a very short life? Most of these women went to Tiller after having made the most agonising of decisions.

Quote:

In July 1993, my husband and I received the worst news about our son's impending birth: He suffered from multiple, severe fetal anomalies, both internal and external, thought to be the result of a rare blood disorder. If he could survive his early birth at 24 weeks he most likely would not survive his blood cancer beyond the age of 9.

After several years of trying to conceive our second child, the news could not have been more devastating. When we heard the news, I had been in Mt. Sinai Hospital in NYC for more than two weeks, hooked up to a subcutaneous pump delivering a medication to stop contractions. While still reeling from the shock, we were told we could take our chances and let the baby be born, but that the state would be forced to intervene if we did not then take every measure to keep our son alive. Or, we could consider two late-term abortion clinics�one in Wichita, Kan., the other in Holland! Our initial thoughts were "how could we be in a major NYC hospital in the United States and be told these are our only choices?" To say it was surreal is an understatement.

We made the very painful decision to travel to Wichita after many sleepless, tear-filled hours of discussion. The "quality" of life our son would have had, and the effects this birth could have had on our family for years to come, brought us to that difficult road. I could never explain to anyone how it felt to travel six hours with my baby kicking, knowing that I was about to end the life we tried so lovingly to create. While my husband lived this nightmare with me, even he could not understand or experience the depths of despair that I felt. The scars are still there.

My husband and I found Dr. George Tiller to be a caring, sensitive, and compassionate man who truly believed he was helping those of us who were desperate and had nowhere else to go. While we were at his clinic, he was very concerned about an 11-year-old child raped by her stepfather. And, when we were tormented by Operation Rescue protesters outside his clinic, he put on a bullet proof vest and personally drove us out of there while we hid in his van.

http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/another-memory-visiting-dr-tiller

Some of these women were carrying babies who were not going to survive more than a few days of birth.

I personally know a woman who carried a baby to full term, knowing that the baby had not developed its lungs. It was horrible for her. As she gave birth the poor thing died, because as it came out into the world it could not breathe. She knew this would happen, and had to carry the baby for months knowing its terrible fate. The medical staff attending were very distressed, even though it had been known this would happen. For many women it would be much easier to have the baby aborted, and not to carry it all the way just for it to die a few months later.

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject:

Here is another story.

The baby was likely to die anyway. And if it did survive, it would only have part of its brain, and would be paralysed etc.

To go through the pregnancy would decrease the mothers chance of having another baby. In a way, not aborting this baby would have potentially destroyed the life of a future baby.

Quote:

I did not know Dr. Tiller, but his assassination vividly reminds me of events in 1983, when my wife and I had a devasting experience with a late-term pregnancy gone wrong at 38 weeks. We had a daughter (I will call her that�in our case, the distinction between fetus and child was not relevant) who developed hydrocephalus (water on the brain) late in the pregnancy, which was discovered at the last ultrasound. Her head was huge with fluid, and therefore would not fit through the birth canal. Actually, it was called hydroencephaly, meaning that she essentially had no brain, because it had been substantially dissolved by the neural fluid from a spinal cord that had not properly closed. Because of the head size, we learned that my wife would have to have a caesarian to deliver the baby�although common, a major surgery. My wife had had an ectopic pregnancy, with major surgery that devasted her, but we very much wanted the baby. Yet we learned that even with the caesarian, the baby would either die shortly after birth, or would live somewhat longer, and very, very badly�likely paralyzed, blind, and without significant mental faculties. My brother is a neonatologist, an expert in premature babies and other problems, and he consulted with specialists around the country. Nothing could be done to improve the predicted outcome. We decided to terminate the pregnancy and avoid the caesarian, to preserve my wife's health and increase her chances for another child, and so we wouldn't simultaneously be grieving the child and coping with recovery from surgery. We made that wrenching decision and the pregnancy was terminated at Stanford University, with the baby delivered vaginally after the evacuation of the spinal fluid from her head. This is what was much later termed "partial birth abortion" and villified by politicians and ideologues who have no idea of the reality we experienced. We buried our daughter in a cemetary in Santa Cruz, Calif. We continue to grieve her loss, and we are also grateful to the caring doctors who assisted us in our time of need.

Would that Dr. Tiller's killer, and his allies, had any idea of the nature of the medical disasters for which he offered his help. Would that they cared.

http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/grieving-late-term-abortion-third-account

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject:

vonjunk wrote:

I read the alternative case in the post I responded to, I just wasn't very comfortable with it honestly.

The reason I dislike your alternative examples is that things like rape, the Holocaust, etc really aren't morally ambiguous at all. With abortion, there is a moral ambiguity: who has the greater right to the woman's body, the woman herself, or the baby? That question leads to a variety of opinions in our populace, and some (I'd argue fairly mature) people feel that although they themselves think abortion is wrong, they don't think their opinion should be legislated, precisely because of the ethical ambiguity involved.

I cannot think of a similar, compelling ethical ambiguity regarding rape or the Holocaust. No one says, "I think Holocausts are wrong, but I'm pro-choice about Holocausts," not because it wouldn't make sense, but because no one really feels that way due to the lack of ethical ambiguity; it's more or less clear cut, the vast majority of us are hard line against it, a few extremists are for it. I -- and many people -- think abortion is very ethically ambiguious. Few people want to stand up and say, "Yes, I want babies to be killed," but many people want to stand up and say, "Women should have 100% right to self-determination regarding their own bodies." It really comes down to which you feel is more important, and that leads some people to remain more or less in the middle, because they're fairly conflicted.

I understand that what you're trying to say is, "Hey, abortion really isn't any more morally ambiguous than the Holocaust or rape," but I think many people -- perhaps even a majority of people -- simply don't agree.

Last edited by Fox on Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:

CentralCali wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever understanding intelligible posts.

Evidently false. Again, sorry you had a hard time of it.

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:

The Bravery of George Tiller

Quote:

The killing of George Tiller on Sunday is a reminder, as if we needed one, of why so few doctors dare to become abortion providers outside big cities, why even fewer perform late-term abortions, and of the bravery it takes to be a member of these small bands. Tiller, 67, performed late-term abortions in the rare cases in which his state, Kansas, allows it. (Two doctors have to say independently that a woman would be irreparably harmed by giving birth.) For his willingness, Tiller was hounded throughout his career. In 1986, his clinic was bombed. In 1993, he was shot in both arms. This photo gallery from the Wichita Eagle chronicles those travails and more; the video below shows Dr. Tiller describing these unfortunate incidents. The Kansas attorney general's office went after Tiller almost as often as anti-abortion protesters did

Wow, all the crap this guy had to put with. He was the target of politicians as well as the nuts. Yet despite the terrorism committed against him (his clinic bombed, an assassination attempt) and all these stressful lawsuits etc, he still kept going, providing an essential service to desperate unfortunate parents. Very courageous and principled.

CentralCali

Joined: 17 May 2007

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

CentralCali wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever understanding intelligible posts.

Evidently false.

Well, since you've dropped all pretense of politeness, here's some sage advice for you: Learn what an antecedent is in English prose.

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