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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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 Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| DC in Suwon wrote: |
If there is a (or only one) god and it had a gender, it'd definitely be female.
But since all religion was created by human (specifically man), are you surprised that it's biased towards men?
Another reason why it's hard to take religion seriously. Check please. |
 Right on. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Does God hate women? |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
BTW, on this forum lately we've already been discussing how Saudi Arabians are considered extreme beyond the pale by their own co-religionists, even by plenty of Saudi Arabians themselves. So holding up a deviant nation like SA as a typical example of an Islamic culture is a bit silly.
It's like going to the sex offenders' wing of the local prison, and saying these guys represent a typical cross section of our neighbourhood. Most Muslims will tell you that the Saudi Arabians are loons, and they are generally disliked all over the muslim world.
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I would like to see you post some evidence that there is widespread dislike of Saudi Arabia 'all over the Muslim world'. That claim sounds very anecdotal to me. Some progressive Muslims would no doubt think that way but there are also plenty of conservative Muslims who hope for such sharia laws to be introduced in other Muslim countries.
Also Saudi Arabia is not the only Muslim country to have misogynist laws and customs. Pakistan has a bad track record:
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The status of women in Pakistan varies considerably across classes, regions, and the rural/urban divide due to uneven socioeconomic development and the impact of tribal, feudal, and capitalist social formations on women's lives. The Pakistani women of today enjoy a better status than most Islamic and Middle Eastern women. However, on an average, the women's situation vis-�-vis men is one of systemic subordination, although there have been attempts by the government and enlightened groups to elevate the status of women in Pakistani society.
The violence against women in Pakistan is a major problem. Feminists and women's groups in Pakistan have criticized the Pakistani government and its leaders for whitewashing the persecution of women and trying to suppress information about their plight in the international arena. Skepticism and biased attitudes against women's complaints of violence are common among prosecutors, police officers and medicolegal doctors in Pakistan. According to reports from 1990s, such complaints often face delayed/mishandled processing and inadequate/improper investigations.
Sexual violence
Rape is one of the most common crimes against women but grossly underreported due to the shame attached to the victim. Many cases of sexual harassment and acid attacks have also been reported.
Marital rape is not recognized as a criminal offense in Pakistani law. Many cases of rape in police custody have also been reported. According to Report of the Commission of Inquiry for Women (1997), 70 percent of women in police stations were subjected to sexual and physical violence. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Pakistan
Not to mention Afghanistan and Iran. These countries combined represent a significant proportion of the Islamic population in the world.
Again, to make it clear to you, I'm not claiming that Islam is the only misogynist religion. Any religion that does not allow women the same kind of appointments within the religion is, of course, misogynist. Catholicism is very misogynist as well. However, whether it be primarily from secularization or other reasons, the Muslim world, on average, still lags far behind the western world in terms of women's rights. You can be the apologist all you want but most rational people can see that this is the case. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Does God hate women?
You bet your hat!
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Before any of you get offended, let me just state that God does NOT hate ALL women - just the vast majority. I estimate that on average 99.999% of ALL women born today are heading straight to Hell.
http://www.godhatesgoths.com/godhateswomen.html |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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If your OP is asking why Islam is singled out as misogynistic, I�d say it�s pretty simple:
1. Any sort of transparency in Islam is new to the wider Western world. Thus, its foreignness and newness automatically put such things under the microscope.
2. From a Foucauldian standpoint, Islamic misogyny is far more visible, thus easier to condemn and ridicule. While other religions may have similar practices to FGM, veils, and the like, these forms of oppression are far more visible in the literal sense.
3. Recently, The other Abraham religions: Christianity and Judaism, have largely (in general) freed themselves (or at least started to) of blatant misogynistic tendencies and practices. They however, still must confront their past, and a convenient way to deflect their past �sins� is to shift focus on the practices of Islam.
4. If I�m not mistaken, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Islam is almost universally linked with the Middle East. Whether it is out of ethnocentrism, racism, religicism (I�m not sure if there�s a better word for it) or what have you, a good portion of people are scared of Islam and look to demonize it.
5. Finally, the snippet in the OP mentions three cases. If you had to pick one, which gets to wear the hat of �extreme misogyny?�
If you�re asking why ALL religions seem to demonize women, it�s more of a historical question. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| If I�m not mistaken, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world |
....which is just another way of saying that Muslim women have 7 babies, over twice that of non-Muslims
And while we're on the subject, it was a famous saying of the Prophet that a woman is not permitted by God to refuse sex even if she's riding a camel.
Man: darling, I'm horny!
Woman: can't you see I'm rather busy riding a camel, dear?
Man: Terribly sorry. Refusing sex is har'aam.
Woman: oh well, make it quick then
Man: Don't I always? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Here's a link explaining some common misconceptions about the "Hindu" tradition ... http://hinduism.iskcon.com/lifestyle/903.htm
Progressive spiritual realization means to gradually become detached from material bodily designations such as gender, race, and nationality.
However, the original Vedic varnashrama system purportedly created by God divides society into various classes according to nature and quality of work, and each class has different prescribed duties which need to be carried out for the social body as a whole to steadily progress both spiritually and materially.
Arguably, women constitute a separate class from men, and they have different prescribed duties (mainly relating to motherhood) while men are scripturally duty-bound to protect and take care of women.
Material equality is basically a utopian idea (as is the idea of a "classless" society) but there is equality on the spiritual platform of transcendental service to God in varieties of eternal loving relationships untinged by any materiality.
However, even within the Krishna consciousness movement there are feminist elements and different interpretations over what the role of devotee women should be in modern society.
Here's part of a some male devotee's blog responding to points made by feminist devotees ...
http://iskconjiva.blogspot.com/ |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| 1. Any sort of transparency in Islam is new to the wider Western world. Thus, its foreignness and newness automatically put such things under the microscope. |
What? What? What? We've been going back and forth with them as the "other" for more than a thousand years. Are you AT ALL aware of the history between the West and the so-called islamic world?
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| 2. From a Foucauldian standpoint, Islamic misogyny is far more visible, thus easier to condemn and ridicule. While other religions may have similar practices to FGM, veils, and the like, these forms of oppression are far more visible in the literal sense. |
From a "foucauldian"? Congratulations on finishing your undergrad this semester.
...
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| 4. If I�m not mistaken, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. |
Yeah, so you had better get used to dealing with it as might an adult. |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
What? What? What? We've been going back and forth with them as the "other" for more than a thousand years. Are you AT ALL aware of the history between the West and the so-called islamic world? |
Yes, I am aware of the history. Your use of the word �other� would only prove my point. I guess you missed the point. Any sort of transparency is new, not relations. The fact of the matter is, Islam is still considered to be this foreign mystery.
| mises wrote: |
From a "foucauldian"? Congratulations on finishing your undergrad this semester.
... |
Sorry that I enjoy philosophy and reading in general, and giving credit to ideas that are in no ways my own. I�ll be sure to keep my posts as trivial as I can. Thanks for a model to work with. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| islam is not some mysterious, secretive and hard to understand 'thing'. It is not a mystery nor is it foreign any longer. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
| . From a Foucauldian standpoint, Islamic misogyny is far more visible, thus easier to condemn and ridicule. While other religions may have similar practices to FGM, veils, and the like, these forms of oppression are far more visible in the literal sense. |
It's far more visible because we are talking about it. FGM happens among Christians in Africa big time, but for some reason that is ignored. It's only sexy when Muslims do it. In fact, it is not even an Islamic custom. It's a custom from pre-Islamic times that communities in those areas still practice, whether they are Islamic, Christian or Animist.
As for veils, it's only very recently they've come into widespread vogue, and in both the Middle East and parts of Europe it was a Christian tradition for women to wear head coverings. In Syria for example the Christian community still practice this.
For a long time, Islam had a much more progressive view of women than Christianity or Judaism. When the religion's founder decided that women should also receive an inheritance (even if it was only half of what their brothers received) it was quite astonishing to onlookers. Women's rights were elevated under the new religion in a way that was quite revolutionary, given practices at that time.
I think misogyny is a natural human condition - not invented by religion - just incorporated into religion, since man creates god in his own image, after all.
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| 3. Recently, The other Abraham religions: Christianity and Judaism, have largely (in general) freed themselves (or at least started to) of blatant misogynistic tendencies and practices. They however, still must confront their past, and a convenient way to deflect their past �sins� is to shift focus on the practices of Islam. |
That's a good point. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
If your OP is asking why Islam is singled out as misogynistic, I�d say it�s pretty simple:
1. Any sort of transparency in Islam is new to the wider Western world. Thus, its foreignness and newness automatically put such things under the microscope.
2. From a Foucauldian standpoint, Islamic misogyny is far more visible, thus easier to condemn and ridicule. While other religions may have similar practices to FGM, veils, and the like, these forms of oppression are far more visible in the literal sense.
3. Recently, The other Abraham religions: Christianity and Judaism, have largely (in general) freed themselves (or at least started to) of blatant misogynistic tendencies and practices. They however, still must confront their past, and a convenient way to deflect their past �sins� is to shift focus on the practices of Islam.
4. If I�m not mistaken, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Islam is almost universally linked with the Middle East. Whether it is out of ethnocentrism, racism, religicism (I�m not sure if there�s a better word for it) or what have you, a good portion of people are scared of Islam and look to demonize it.
5. Finally, the snippet in the OP mentions three cases. If you had to pick one, which gets to wear the hat of �extreme misogyny?�
If you�re asking why ALL religions seem to demonize women, it�s more of a historical question. |
These arguments seem fairly sophistic to me. Is it really 'demonizing' Muslims to point out the fact that in several of the largest Muslim countries women have almost no legal rights at all? The misogyny of other religions (in the present at least) while reprehensible does not compare.
There is certainly an extreme among conservatives in the west to stereotype Muslims as fundamentalists however there is an equally bad tendency on the far left to reject and deny any kind of criticism of Islamic repression of women.
What's the message you are trying to send here? It's OK to treat women like chattels because you are Muslim and we respect your religion and other religions are also misogynist?
This kind of Cultural relativism really sells out the women in countries like Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia who lack many of the basic rights of western women. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
If your OP is asking why Islam is singled out as misogynistic, I�d say it�s pretty simple:
1. Any sort of transparency in Islam is new to the wider Western world. Thus, its foreignness and newness automatically put such things under the microscope.
2. From a Foucauldian standpoint, Islamic misogyny is far more visible, thus easier to condemn and ridicule. While other religions may have similar practices to FGM, veils, and the like, these forms of oppression are far more visible in the literal sense.
3. Recently, The other Abraham religions: Christianity and Judaism, have largely (in general) freed themselves (or at least started to) of blatant misogynistic tendencies and practices. They however, still must confront their past, and a convenient way to deflect their past �sins� is to shift focus on the practices of Islam.
4. If I�m not mistaken, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Islam is almost universally linked with the Middle East. Whether it is out of ethnocentrism, racism, religicism (I�m not sure if there�s a better word for it) or what have you, a good portion of people are scared of Islam and look to demonize it.
5. Finally, the snippet in the OP mentions three cases. If you had to pick one, which gets to wear the hat of �extreme misogyny?�
If you�re asking why ALL religions seem to demonize women, it�s more of a historical question. |
These arguments seem fairly sophistic to me. Is it really 'demonizing' Muslims to point out the fact that in several of the largest Muslim countries women have almost no legal rights at all? The misogyny of other religions (in the present at least) while reprehensible does not compare.
There is certainly an extreme among conservatives in the west to stereotype Muslims as fundamentalists however there is an equally bad tendency on the far left to reject and deny any kind of criticism of Islamic repression of women.
What's the message you are trying to send here? It's OK to treat women like chattels because you are Muslim and we respect your religion and other religions are also misogynist?
This kind of Cultural relativism really sells out the women in countries like Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia who lack many of the basic rights of western women. |
I don't see him trying to say any such thing.
This is actually why I rarely read your posts now. Because you seem quite irrational. |
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Patrick Bateman
Joined: 21 Apr 2009
Location: Lost in Translation
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
These arguments seem fairly sophistic to me. Is it really 'demonizing' Muslims to point out the fact that in several of the largest Muslim countries women have almost no legal rights at all? The misogyny of other religions (in the present at least) while reprehensible does not compare.
There is certainly an extreme among conservatives in the west to stereotype Muslims as fundamentalists however there is an equally bad tendency on the far left to reject and deny any kind of criticism of Islamic repression of women.
What's the message you are trying to send here? It's OK to treat women like chattels because you are Muslim and we respect your religion and other religions are also misogynist?
This kind of Cultural relativism really sells out the women in countries like Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia who lack many of the basic rights of western women. |
I�m not sure how you got from my post that I am sympathetic or apologetic. The OP seemed to ask why Islam is singled out as the religion of misogyny when all of the Abraham religions have (or had) such tendencies. I merely tried to look at it as objectively as possible. I guess since I didn�t criticize Islam enough in my post, I not only am a cultural relativist, but also a supporter of the subjection of women. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:07 am Post subject: |
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More evidence that God hates the living crap out of women:
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Do you know that a woman's religion is in their vaginas? They are insatiable as far as their vulvas are concerned, and so long as their lust is satisfied they do not care whether it be a buffoon, a negro, a valet, or even a despised man. It is Satan who makes the juices flow from their vaginas.
Shaykh Nefzawi, The Perfumed Garden |
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The entire woman is an evil and what is worse is that it is a necessary evil. You should never ask a woman her advice because her advice is worthless. Hide them so that they can not see other men! Do not spend much time in their company for they will lead you to your downfall!
Let us implore God's help to escape their sorcery
Ali (600-661), the Prophet's cousin and the 4th Caliph |
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Marriage (for a Muslim male) is "the contract by which he acquires the reproductive organ of a woman, with the express purpose of enjoying it
Bousquet, G.H, L'ethique sexuelle de L'Islam |
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Two prayers that never reach the heavens are that of the escaping slave and that of the reluctant woman who frustrates her husband at night
(Hadeeth) |
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The girl who is only the guardian of her honor (her sexual organ) does not have the right to make use of it nor can she invite anyone to violate it. For it is not simply a case of her own honor but also a case of her parents' honor, the honor of her family, of society and of all humanity
Mohammad Qotb, quoted in Ascha, Ghassan, Du Status Inferiour de la Femme en Islam |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Huffdaddy's nearer the mark. Societies have generally treated women badly, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the society, and women's equality is probably something rarely experienced until the last couple of decades, and even then things are not what they could be.
Edit: I just changed Men to Societies, because I don't believe it is a deliberate conspiracy of Men to keep Women down, and most Men were pretty 'kept down' themselves until recent years. |
good points. |
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