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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Summer wine continues to blather on all other the place, except on the thread she expressly created for this topic.
Therefore I'm transplanting her post to this thread were it belongs:
| Summer Wine wrote: |
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quote][b]So worried you were for the Israeli prisioner, and so unconcerned for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners (including child prisoners locked up in violation of international law). [/quote]
Yes, I worry more about an Israeli prisoner than a palestinian because they seem to have shorter life spans. The fact that Israel or its supporters have prisoners and the Palestinians and thier supporters have bodies should be a concern for everyone.
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I would be interested in hearing your response as to why this occurs.
Why have palestinians or Hizbellah killed thier prisoners and sent the bodies back, while Israel managed to send a live terrorist/prisoner home in return.
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Summer wine. Do you really believe that Arabs never die needlessly in Israeli gaols?
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Shaheen died in Be'r al-Saba' Prison on 29 February 2008. PCHR has learnt at the time of writing this press release that his body is being brought into the Gaza Strip through Beit Hanoun (Erez) crossing after an autopsy was performed in an Israeli forensic medicine institute. His family is expected to receive his body in the upcoming few hours. Shaheen was arrested by IOF troops positioned at the then Abu Houli checkpoint in the central Gaza Strip on 15 October 2004. A bill of indictment was presented against him on 16 November 2004, and he was sentenced to 8.5 years of imprisonment.
Shaheen's brother told a PCHR lawyer on 16 October 2004, when he authorized PCHR to pursue the case, that Shaheen was suffering from diabetes and was regularly injected by insulin in order for his health condition to be stable. A lawyer delegated by PCHR, who visited Shaheen in the prison, repeatedly indicated that Shaheen was suffering from acute diabetes.
According to information available to PCHR, Shaheen's health condition recently deteriorated as he suffered from a blockage of arteries and hypertension in addition to chronic diabetes. These facts raise suspicions about the causes of his death as PCHR has repeatedly received information about medical negligence and the failure of Israeli prison authorities to provide Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails with appropriate medical care.
Shaheen was the second Palestinian prisoner to die in Israeli jails in les than two months. In 2007, five Palestinian prisoners died in Israeli jails; four of them died because of medical negligence whereas the fifth one was shot dead by IOF troops who stormed the Negev Prison.
PCHR calls upon the international community and concerned international bodies to immediately intervene to end the suffering of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, as detention condition in Israeli jails are inhuman and violate international humanitarian law and Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners.
PCHR reminds the international community of the at least 11,000 Palestinian prisoners detained in Israeli jails and detention centers, including the 720 form the Gaza Strip whom IOF continue to detain in violation of international law, as these prisoners must have been released when the IOF commander in the Gaza Strip issued a statement ending the Israeli military government in the Gaza Strip. |
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9371.shtml
I googled that up in a heartbeat. If you really gave a toss you could do some research yourself.
Furthermore, Hezbollah prize live prisoners over dead Israelis. Tactically they are worth much more. The reason the Israeli prisoners are often dead is because they are captured during wars, when Israelis are invading their soil (Lebanon).
Can you give me evidence of where Palestinians have killed their prisoners? It doesn't happen very much. Palestinians are regularly killed by Israelis however. Israeli settlers have killed Arab civillians with impunity in the past, and the IDF have killed thousands of Arabs in the last few years alone.
You are so incredibly biased, that you are beyond the scope of an interesting conversation.
I come from the position that all life is equal. The death of an Israeli is as tragic as that of an Arab, and vice versa. You on the other hand come from the position that only Israeli life is truly of any value. That's why it's useless to talk with you. We can never see eye to eye.
Many Arab prisoners have simply disappeared in Israeli captivity. Do you pray for them? No. You are too busy patting yourself on the back 'for loving a people no-one else can love' - or something to that effect that you were muttering about the other day. Too in love with yourself, thinking what a great person you are, loving 'the people no-one else can love. ' I've never read anything so bloody silly. Grow up. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: |
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here, something else you could be reading, and hollering about:
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Conditions are of particular concern given that the Israeli Prison Ordinance (revised in 1971) consists of 114 clauses, but contains no clause or sub-clause defining prisoners' rights. The Ordinance provides a legally binding set of rules for the Minister of Interior, but the Minister formulates these rules himself by administrative decree. There is no prisoner's minimum standards of life.
In Israel, it is for example legally permissible to intern 20 inmates in a cell no larger than 5 metres long, 4 metres wide and 3 metres high. This space includes an open lavatory, and prisoners may be confined indefinitely to such cells for 23 hours a day.
Furthermore, serious concerns exist surrounding:
Ÿ healthcare: any medical checks are often conducted through fences by physicians who are also soldiers, and aspirin is routinely prescribed for all manner of medical complaints
Ÿ food: food is in short supply, cold, and low in nutritional value; many necessities have to be brought in by families, which even then are difficult to get past the Israeli authorities
Ÿ hygiene: prisoners often remain for several months in the clothing they were arrested in, no matter what its condition. In Ketziot Military Detention Camp, 120 detainees share one bar of soap per day.
Ÿ family visits: since the second uprising of September 2000, family visits to detainees from the occupied territories have been prohibited.
Ÿ treatment of women: confinement with Israeli criminal prisoners is common, as is sexual harassment, frequent body searches and physical intimidation
Ÿ treatment of minors: the age of 16 is considered the starting point of adulthood in Israeli prisons, not 18 as stipulated by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child of 1990, to which Israel is a signatory. Children, some as young as 12, face conditions much the same as any other Palestinian prisoner.
These issues are dealt with comprehensively at:
http://www.addameer.org/detention/background.html
Torture is another highly contentious issue, since for years it was commonly used in General Security Service interrogations but referred to as "moderate, physical pressure." The methods included violent shaking, binding the detainees in painful positions, sleep deprivation, physical threats, humiliation, and covering the head with a foul-smelling sack.
All governmental authorities, from the Israeli Defence Forces to the Supreme Court, took part in approving torture, developing new methods and supervising them. |
http://www.arabmediawatch.com/amw/CountryBackgrounds/Palestine/PalestinianprisonersinIsraelijails/tabid/355/Default.aspx
There's loads more. But basically, you don't give a rat's behind. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Israel must look into Gilad Shalit's fate |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
When has an extremist ever given back a live jew?
Why must Israel give back live for dead? Big Bird, when do the muslims have to account for thier crimes? Is it on the same day the Jews have too?
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What does one entail by saying "The Muslims" rather than citing groups?
I don't like the sound of that, personally. Let's look at groups since Israel is not fighting every single Muslim and Muslim group. For example, Israel is not at war with Jordan. Hezbollah has given dead bodies and also a Jewish businessman last year or so. Also, Egypt gave up some Druze
spies that were sent to Israel. Granted, Druze are not Jews, but when Hezbollah gave up that businessman he was certainly Jewish. Hezbollah would give up a live Jew if it had one. When it comes to lives, the lives of one Jewish person is treated as the equivalent of at least hundreds of
Palestinians or Lebanese if not thousands in jail. That's how it has been dealt with in the past and Israel and the two sides argue over who will be on the list.
There needs to be an end of hostilities on all sides. Otherwise, more Arabs will die, more Israeli soldiers will die, and it's all pointless. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a little taste of what might happen to you if you are captured by an occupying power. And it's this kind of thing that always leaves me with much more sympathy for the occupied than the occupier. The occupier does have a choice.
Bound, blindfolded and beaten � by Israeli troops
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Children among Palestinian detainees abused during West Bank operation, according to soldiers' confessions.
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Two Israeli officers have testified that troops in the West Bank beat, bound and blindfolded Palestinian civilians as young as 14.
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The worst beatings were in the bathrooms, he said. "The soldiers who took [detainees] to the toilet just exploded [over] them with beatings; cursed them with no reason. When they took one Arab to the toilet so that he could urinate, one of them gave him a slap that brought him to the ground. He had been handcuffed from behind with a nylon restraint and blindfolded. He wasn't insolent, he didn't do anything to get on anyone's nerves ... [it was] just because he's an Arab. He was something like 15 years old." The soldier said he saw a lot of soldiers "just knee [Palestinians] because it's boring, because you stand there 10 hours, you're not doing anything, so they beat people up."
A second soldier described a "fanatical atmosphere" during the search operations. "We would go into a house and turn the whole thing upside down," he recalled, but no weapons were found. "They confiscated kitchen knives."
The first soldier said involvement was widespread."There were a lot of reservists that participated, and they totally had a celebration on the Palestinians: curses, humiliation, pulling hair and ears, kicks, slaps. These things were the norm."
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| In Hares, Ihab Shamlawi, a university student, recalled watching as a high school pupil asked soldiers permission to go to the bathroom. "They put him on the floor, they kicked his legs and beat him," he said. Ten or 15 other soldiers were watching, Mr Shamlawi recalled. "They all laughed," he said. |
This is just run of the mill stuff. It's been happening for 40 years. But occasionally, it gets in the media. Though most people don't take any notice because it's not as 'shocking' as if a bunch of Palestinians rocked up to an Israeli village and started beating up high school kids for kicks.
And summerwine wonders why the Palestinians do mean things to the Israelis. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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My point which seemed to have been over looked is that when we look at the current history of Israeli prisoners captured vs. Arab prisoners captured. The percentage/per capita statistics seems to show that most Israeli prisoners end up tortured and dead vs Arab prisoners. Also arab prisoners have a better chance of survival, even rock using child killers.
Also BB, could you please check your prejudices.
Simply because someone supports Israel doesn't make them a member of a prayer group. Though maybe you mean that Israel needs one?
(post editted)
Last edited by Summer Wine on Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Summer Whine, speak to the whole forum and don't get personal in your OP. |
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| Now you and your church group can have something new to pray about |
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| Go back to the New Testament and find the part that says only Jews and Christians are worthy of your concern. That's a part I never read |
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Now you and your church group can have something new to pray about.
Gilad Shalit is just a young lad, and I hope he is released sooner rather than later. It must be very difficult for him and his family. But remember, Shalit is a soldier in an occupying army. |
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| Looks like good news for Shalit. Summer wine may soon have one less person to pray for. |
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Well, Summer Whine, I was just perusing a few pages of a book by a famous Christian when I was reminded that, on June of 2006, Palestinians captured an Israeli soldier (given the date of capture we can happily surmise him to be none other than Shalit himself).
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Summer wine continues to blather on all other the place, except on the thread she expressly created for this topic.
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| Summer wine. Do you really believe that Arabs never die needlessly in Israeli gaols? |
All of the above are interesting points, and yet none of them are written by me.
(post editted)
Last edited by Summer Wine on Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:53 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| If Shalit is aware that the Israelis refuse to swap Arab prisoners for him, I bet he is so pissed that Israelis would rather spend the holiday with the Arab prisoners than with him. I know I would be. |
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chickenpie
Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Israel must look into Gilad Shalit's fate |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
When has an extremist ever given back a live jew?
Why must Israel give back live for dead? Big Bird, when do the muslims have to account for thier crimes? Is it on the same day the Jews have too?
(post edited) |
I hope Israel grows up and stops being such a bunch of cunts.
I don't consider the Jews to be a race of people, just people. People that have caused more trouble in the world than any other people in the last 50 other than the Americans. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't consider the Jews to be a race of people, just people. People that have caused more trouble in the world than any other people in the last 50 other than the Americans. |
Then why do you need to describe them as Jews.
I might as well say "why does S. Arabia consider itself a muslim state, when we all know that Mecca and Medina were non muslim before thier populations were converted or exterminated, therefore why should we think of S. Arabia as a muslim race of people".
Ok, I am trolling 
We all discriminate and we all like to believe that we were not influenced in any way by our society or ideas we absoberbed through the media and education.
Though if you weren't then great.
I have just experienced a miracle. 
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| just people. People that have caused more trouble in the world than any other people |
You seriously can't believe that. I mean, just read historical issues and you would understand that this statement isn't true. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:06 am Post subject: |
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I wish to re-evaluate the above issue. In hind sight, it didn't answer Mises question. For that I apologise as my arguments should be more clear and concise. |
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