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Sadebugo1
Joined: 11 May 2003
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 Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: East Sea |
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I tried to post this yesterday but it was inadvertently deleted. Anyway, recently, students in my adult ESL class in the US were doing an exercise that required them to look at a pulldown world map in my classroom. One of the students noticed that the placename 'Sea of Japan' had been marked out with a black marker and replaced with 'East Sea.' I checked with other instructors and found out that their maps had also been defamed in this way. The thing that annoys me the most about this is not that (I'm assuming) Korean students want to call this sea by a different name but that they want to force the rest of us to do the same. That's really the issue.
As I said yesterday, I turned this into a teaching opportunity by pointing out how vandalism of someone else's property somehow diminishes the message that the individual was trying to put forth and makes us less sympathetic to the 'cause.' Until Korea/Koreans lose this nationalistic mentality, they will never achieve the place in the world order that they feel justified in having.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| I make a point to say Sea of Japan everytime, but I never call it 일해 in Korean. It's called respect. |
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eIn07912
Joined: 06 Dec 2008
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: |
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the korean herald ran a story a few months ago calling the yellow sea the "west sea". i pointed out to my uni students that historically this has always been called yellow sea and when koreans just start claiming ownership by changing the name, it completely causes them to lose all credibility with outsiders.
they get angry with "sea of japan" because in a way its saying that that sea belongs to japan. but when u call them both "east sea" and "west sea" u r indirectly saying both of those belong to u because those r only east and west of one country, korea.
they get angry at japan for calling it sea of japan, yet then they turn around and do the exact same damn thing. arrrgh.
"first, remember where u r.... now, think about whats logical and then do the opposite".... i try to tell myself this when i get frustrated and occasionally it does help. |
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Cerriowen
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Location: Pocheon
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Oh yea, and per the OP's original post...
If it's your map, I'd demand the students buy you another. They disrespected you and your property.
If it's the schools... well... explain to them how calling it "east - sea" and "west - sea" is just as egocentric as calling it "Sea of Japan" and everyone else in the world calls it that. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Does this stuff really matter that much in our lives? The people from Kuwait call the Persian Gulf the Arabian Gulf, not the Persian Gulf. I don't really care if it's called the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf or both, and I don't care if the East Sea is called the Sea of Japan. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| I think the point is that some Koreans are trying to force others to adopt the East Sea name. Even resorting to Vanadalism it seems |
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Sadebugo1
Joined: 11 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Does this stuff really matter that much in our lives? The people from Kuwait call the Persian Gulf the Arabian Gulf, not the Persian Gulf. I don't really care if it's called the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Gulf or both, and I don't care if the East Sea is called the Sea of Japan. |
It doesn't really matter to me other than my map being ruined. Another poster suggested the student(s) buy me a new map but, of course, the alteration was done in secret so the perpetrator is unknown.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Re: East Sea |
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| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
I tried to post this yesterday but it was inadvertently deleted. Anyway, recently, students in my adult ESL class in the US were doing an exercise that required them to look at a pulldown world map in my classroom. One of the students noticed that the placename 'Sea of Japan' had been marked out with a black marker and replaced with 'East Sea.' I checked with other instructors and found out that their maps had also been defamed in this way. The thing that annoys me the most about this is not that (I'm assuming) Korean students want to call this sea by a different name but that they want to force the rest of us to do the same. That's really the issue.
As I said yesterday, I turned this into a teaching opportunity by pointing out how vandalism of someone else's property somehow diminishes the message that the individual was trying to put forth and makes us less sympathetic to the 'cause.' Until Korea/Koreans lose this nationalistic mentality, they will never achieve the place in the world order that they feel justified in having.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
First of all, I am against vandalism. I think that's petty, bad behaviour on the part of a student. It's understandable, that you were upset with that.
Look, nationalism that seems vain is not only in existence in Korea.
As far as Korea achieving its place in the world, that takes time.
It only became a modern country in the last 25 years or so.
Most people still associate South Korea with poverty and the Korea War.
Most people in the West do not know the difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's face it.
Why focus so much on whether the world knows you or not? It's good for tourism. As far as small-minded nationalism, I was very embarassed when a politician in the US wanted to call French fries -freedom fries.
Argentina, perhaps, calls the Falkland Islands -Malvinas.
The nationalism thing is not unusual in the world. I just think someone vandalizing your map was very disrespectful. The person who did that was offended to see "The Sea of Japan" on the map based on the nationalist brainwashing that promoted by Korea's presidents in the past to create a modern Korean national identity. Korea didn't have much of a Korean national identity and things maybe went too far when it comes to nationalism. |
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Sadebugo1
Joined: 11 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: Re: East Sea |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
I tried to post this yesterday but it was inadvertently deleted. Anyway, recently, students in my adult ESL class in the US were doing an exercise that required them to look at a pulldown world map in my classroom. One of the students noticed that the placename 'Sea of Japan' had been marked out with a black marker and replaced with 'East Sea.' I checked with other instructors and found out that their maps had also been defamed in this way. The thing that annoys me the most about this is not that (I'm assuming) Korean students want to call this sea by a different name but that they want to force the rest of us to do the same. That's really the issue.
As I said yesterday, I turned this into a teaching opportunity by pointing out how vandalism of someone else's property somehow diminishes the message that the individual was trying to put forth and makes us less sympathetic to the 'cause.' Until Korea/Koreans lose this nationalistic mentality, they will never achieve the place in the world order that they feel justified in having.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
First of all, I am against vandalism. I think that's petty, bad behaviour on the part of a student. It's understandable, that you were upset with that.
Look, nationalism that seems vain is not only in existence in Korea.
As far as Korea achieving its place in the world, that takes time.
It only became a modern country in the last 25 years or so.
Most people still associate South Korea with poverty and the Korea War.
Most people in the West do not know the difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's face it.
Why focus so much on whether the world knows you or not? It's good for tourism. As far as small-minded nationalism, I was very embarassed when a politician in the US wanted to call French fries -freedom fries.
Argentina, perhaps, calls the Falkland Islands -Malvinas.
The nationalism thing is not unusual in the world. I just think someone vandalizing your map was very disrespectful. The person who did that was offended to see "The Sea of Japan" on the map based on the nationalist brainwashing that promoted by Korea's presidents in the past to create a modern Korean national identity. Korea didn't have much of a Korean national identity and things maybe went too far when it comes to nationalism. |
Hey, Adventurer:
I don't mean to start a debate with you, but one of my pet peeves is saying a particular problem is common in other places to somehow mitigate the error of the offender in question. I don't know if that was your intent or not so please forgive if I misjudged what you were saying in the post. Anyway, for the record, it's irrelevant if someone else demonstrates bad judgment by calling French Fries by the name of Freedom Fries, etc. Just because nationalism may be common, this in no way detracts from the negative nature of Korean nationalism. This is a 'Korean Discussion' board and that's why the focus is on Korea. On US-focused boards, the discussion will dwell on those issues.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood your meaning.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: Re: East Sea |
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| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
I tried to post this yesterday but it was inadvertently deleted. Anyway, recently, students in my adult ESL class in the US were doing an exercise that required them to look at a pulldown world map in my classroom. One of the students noticed that the placename 'Sea of Japan' had been marked out with a black marker and replaced with 'East Sea.' I checked with other instructors and found out that their maps had also been defamed in this way. The thing that annoys me the most about this is not that (I'm assuming) Korean students want to call this sea by a different name but that they want to force the rest of us to do the same. That's really the issue.
As I said yesterday, I turned this into a teaching opportunity by pointing out how vandalism of someone else's property somehow diminishes the message that the individual was trying to put forth and makes us less sympathetic to the 'cause.' Until Korea/Koreans lose this nationalistic mentality, they will never achieve the place in the world order that they feel justified in having.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
First of all, I am against vandalism. I think that's petty, bad behaviour on the part of a student. It's understandable, that you were upset with that.
Look, nationalism that seems vain is not only in existence in Korea.
As far as Korea achieving its place in the world, that takes time.
It only became a modern country in the last 25 years or so.
Most people still associate South Korea with poverty and the Korea War.
Most people in the West do not know the difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's face it.
Why focus so much on whether the world knows you or not? It's good for tourism. As far as small-minded nationalism, I was very embarassed when a politician in the US wanted to call French fries -freedom fries.
Argentina, perhaps, calls the Falkland Islands -Malvinas.
The nationalism thing is not unusual in the world. I just think someone vandalizing your map was very disrespectful. The person who did that was offended to see "The Sea of Japan" on the map based on the nationalist brainwashing that promoted by Korea's presidents in the past to create a modern Korean national identity. Korea didn't have much of a Korean national identity and things maybe went too far when it comes to nationalism. |
Hey, Adventurer:
I don't mean to start a debate with you, but one of my pet peeves is saying a particular problem is common in other places to somehow mitigate the error of the offender in question. I don't know if that was your intent or not so please forgive if I misjudged what you were saying in the post. Anyway, for the record, it's irrelevant if someone else demonstrates bad judgment by calling French Fries by the name of Freedom Fries, etc. Just because nationalism may be common, this in no way detracts from the negative nature of Korean nationalism. This is a 'Korean Discussion' board and that's why the focus is on Korea. On US-focused boards, the discussion will dwell on those issues.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood your meaning.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
Sadebugo, I wrote the above because you said if Koreans want to gain in terms of their standing in the world they shouldn't fuss over something being called East of Japan. I do think sometimes Korea is sometimes unrefined with its nationalism, but since you brought up something called standing of the world, then you were making a comparison in a way, so that's why I responded that there are so many places that engage in what you and I might consider idiotic nationalism and take things to the extreme. What do you think of countries that ensure that the word Israel is not on the map say in some parts of the Middle East since they don't yet recognize Israel due to the non-existence of diplomatic relations and a peace treaty?
Anyway, I think the vandalism is horrible. I don't think anyone should impose on you by vandalizing your map what you should call a certain sea. |
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ryoga013
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| My reply was deleted? meh... In Korea, speaking Korean, Koreans can call it the sea or whatever they want. The east Kimchi-Sea? ok, as long as you're saying it in Korean. Once they start speaking English, it's the Sea of Japan. This is the English name for the body of water between Japan and korea. Don't like it? don't go to any institution that refers to it by a name you don't like... let's see how far you get... |
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Sadebugo1
Joined: 11 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Re: East Sea |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| Sadebugo1 wrote: |
I tried to post this yesterday but it was inadvertently deleted. Anyway, recently, students in my adult ESL class in the US were doing an exercise that required them to look at a pulldown world map in my classroom. One of the students noticed that the placename 'Sea of Japan' had been marked out with a black marker and replaced with 'East Sea.' I checked with other instructors and found out that their maps had also been defamed in this way. The thing that annoys me the most about this is not that (I'm assuming) Korean students want to call this sea by a different name but that they want to force the rest of us to do the same. That's really the issue.
As I said yesterday, I turned this into a teaching opportunity by pointing out how vandalism of someone else's property somehow diminishes the message that the individual was trying to put forth and makes us less sympathetic to the 'cause.' Until Korea/Koreans lose this nationalistic mentality, they will never achieve the place in the world order that they feel justified in having.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
First of all, I am against vandalism. I think that's petty, bad behaviour on the part of a student. It's understandable, that you were upset with that.
Look, nationalism that seems vain is not only in existence in Korea.
As far as Korea achieving its place in the world, that takes time.
It only became a modern country in the last 25 years or so.
Most people still associate South Korea with poverty and the Korea War.
Most people in the West do not know the difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's face it.
Why focus so much on whether the world knows you or not? It's good for tourism. As far as small-minded nationalism, I was very embarassed when a politician in the US wanted to call French fries -freedom fries.
Argentina, perhaps, calls the Falkland Islands -Malvinas.
The nationalism thing is not unusual in the world. I just think someone vandalizing your map was very disrespectful. The person who did that was offended to see "The Sea of Japan" on the map based on the nationalist brainwashing that promoted by Korea's presidents in the past to create a modern Korean national identity. Korea didn't have much of a Korean national identity and things maybe went too far when it comes to nationalism. |
Hey, Adventurer:
I don't mean to start a debate with you, but one of my pet peeves is saying a particular problem is common in other places to somehow mitigate the error of the offender in question. I don't know if that was your intent or not so please forgive if I misjudged what you were saying in the post. Anyway, for the record, it's irrelevant if someone else demonstrates bad judgment by calling French Fries by the name of Freedom Fries, etc. Just because nationalism may be common, this in no way detracts from the negative nature of Korean nationalism. This is a 'Korean Discussion' board and that's why the focus is on Korea. On US-focused boards, the discussion will dwell on those issues.
Again, sorry if I misunderstood your meaning.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
Sadebugo, I wrote the above because you said if Koreans want to gain in terms of their standing in the world they shouldn't fuss over something being called East of Japan. I do think sometimes Korea is sometimes unrefined with its nationalism, but since you brought up something called standing of the world, then you were making a comparison in a way, so that's why I responded that there are so many places that engage in what you and I might consider idiotic nationalism and take things to the extreme. What do you think of countries that ensure that the word Israel is not on the map say in some parts of the Middle East since they don't yet recognize Israel due to the non-existence of diplomatic relations and a peace treaty?
Anyway, I think the vandalism is horrible. I don't think anyone should impose on you by vandalizing your map what you should call a certain sea. |
Fair enough. I see your meaning now. I would contend, however, that Korean nationalism goes far beyond that in most developed countries both in quantity and absurdity although I cannot prove that empirically. As for the Middle Eastern countries that deny the existence of Israel, well, that is the group I'd probably rank Korea with.
I brought up the 'standing in the world' issue not to compare/contrast but because the Korean government seems to be obsessed with how it is viewed in the world community. My point being that it's reputation would only suffer with demands that other global citizens adhere to its interpretation of geography.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback and don't take any trips to Dokdo. Or is that Takeshima?
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
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southern boy
Joined: 29 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Here's a funny story yet very absurd. A month or so back I was teaching Harcourt 6th grade Social Studies to 1st grade middle schoolers; in one of the chapters was about Asia land regions. So the sea between The Korean peninsular and Japan is officially calls 'Sea of Japan' and one of the questions in that chapter asked that very question. Some knew the answer and others didn't. When I called out the answer, every single student were up in arms protesting, insisting it's either 'East sea' 'Sea of Korea'. At first I thought they were just messing around but they were dead serious, I calmly and rationally explained but the projection from their faces only wanted to murder me, so I let them be.
The next day when I got into work I was called into the boss office, a quick glimse at his face told was something was up. Anyway, he told me how the parents were totally furious because I demeaned Korea and blah blah. I explained to the boss and even had other concrete sources and proof to back up and that I conducted my teaching in a proper manner. It was like pouring gasoline into a burning fire as the boss, chauvinstic patriotism was also on the same line as the parents. He forced me to apologise to the parents and the students one by one. The first instant reaction came to mind was 'fark no!', I firmly stood my ground for while only to change my mind when I recollect that a student from a different class whose dad's a ring leader of the local gang. Anyway I offered to write up a letter and Sea of Korea it shall be. |
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Sadebugo1
Joined: 11 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| southern boy wrote: |
Here's a funny story yet very absurd. A month or so back I was teaching Harcourt 6th grade Social Studies to 1st grade middle schoolers; in one of the chapters was about Asia land regions. So the sea between The Korean peninsular and Japan is officially calls 'Sea of Japan' and one of the questions in that chapter asked that very question. Some knew the answer and others didn't. When I called out the answer, every single student were up in arms protesting, insisting it's either 'East sea' 'Sea of Korea'. At first I thought they were just messing around but they were dead serious, I calmly and rationally explained but the projection from their faces only wanted to murder me, so I let them be.
The next day when I got into work I was called into the boss office, a quick glimse at his face told was something was up. Anyway, he told me how the parents were totally furious because I demeaned Korea and blah blah. I explained to the boss and even had other concrete sources and proof to back up and that I conducted my teaching in a proper manner. It was like pouring gasoline into a burning fire as the boss, chauvinstic patriotism was also on the same line as the parents. He forced me to apologise to the parents and the students one by one. The first instant reaction came to mind was 'fark no!', I firmly stood my ground for while only to change my mind when I recollect that a student from a different class whose dad's a ring leader of the local gang. Anyway I offered to write up a letter and Sea of Korea it shall be. |
You see, this is what I was talking about when positing that the Korean form of nationalism is an altogether different creature than that in most other countries. I was a teacher for two years in the EPIK program. During the so-called 'IMF Crisis' my high school principal made an announcement over the intercom that the crisis was the fault of the US and other 'rich' countries. He then advocated not buying foreign products and stood by while students burned an assortment of foreign products in the school yard. Prior to this, I had had a great relationship with most of my students, but this turned cold for my remaining time there. I remember asking one of my coteachers if the principal was trying to get me killed or something. Saudi Arabia (my next post) was a piece of cake after that experience.
On this forum, it's easy to give Korea the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately, the reality on the streets of Seoul is quite unforgiving and has driven away many an expat who had hoped to make a career there.
Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/ |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, I think a third alternative should be considered. How about the East Asian Sea? (I don't think that name is taken...). |
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