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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
For whatever reason, you seem to think Irish-American = Irish.
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No. I think Americans need to identify themselves with a genetic origin because they think being simply 'American' means WASP. I think I said this above.
I said it is pointless and wondered why other countries don't do the same thing. I came to the above theory as a possible reason.
Maybe the reasons my English cousins don't say they are "Irish-English' is because in their mind, there is no negative connotation with the word 'English'.
Kuros said,
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| They are trying to be friendly and make a connection. |
This is what I was talking about when I said rather than making a connection, it can make you look like a pretender. I don't mean they are pretending to be Irish but are instead diluting their 'Americanness' somewhat. Of course it seems weird to my ears because no-one else does it. And the reason why I think they do it and no-one else is because of my above bolded reason. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Also, I just asked my American housemate about this. He is from the south and says everybody he knows calls themselves 'American'. He knows his ancestry. I think this possibly could be a north-south thing as well as a WASP-everyone else thing. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
No. I think Americans need to identify themselves with a genetic origin because they think being simply 'American' means WASP. I think I said this above.
I said it is pointless and wondered why other countries don't do the same thing. I came to the above theory as a possible reason.
Maybe the reasons my English cousins don't say they are "Irish-English' is because in their mind, there is no negative connotation with the word 'English'. |
Well, you'll be shocked to hear the mass majority of Americans have NO problem being American whatsoever...yet, still there exists a large group of Irish-Americans.
You seem to imply that Irish-Americans hate being American or hate their country. NOT TRUE.
Historically, in American history, Catholics were discriminated against. Irish had horrible stereotypes about them, and there were many signs 'Mickeys need not apply', and on and on. They were basically one very small step above African-American, but not by much.
The Irish also had legendary status for just drinking and fighting and pro-creating (personal note, my grandfather was one of 17 kids, my father was one of 9). Discrimination against them lasted well into the 20th Century...and when suddenly John F. Kennedy rose from the ranks and became President of the United States. Up until that point, it was said that a Catholic would NEVER become President, and PARTICULARLY an Irish one. (Much like how Obama overcame being a black man to become President).
Anyways, there is a strong history of there...and because of it, people who are Irish-American DO have a strong identity. I've never heard of French-Americans or English-Americans...because they were the mainstream.
Your logic seems to be some rambling about Irish-Americans hate their country or hate being American, and therefore try to identify with not being American. Not true.
Irish-American ARE American...and there is a long, strong, well-recorded history on it, you should really read about it, if this phenemonem baffles you to the degree that is does.
On the other hand, it is a pleasure to share the knowledge, as it does seem that quite a few Europeans and Irish who understandably are completely unaware of this history. It also isn't entirely history, as many of us 'Irish-American' descendants are still running around today.
Personally, I would never tell anyone I am Irish, because I simply am not. But I am Irish-American, it is what I am. For you to tell me I need to drop the ethnic identity, means I'd have to erase from my memory all parts of family history and all of their Irish names and their Catholic Pope jokes and their pulpit jokes, their Virgin Mary and St. Christopher references, and everything else. Forget about my older relatives stories about the day John F. Kennedy became President and legitimized Irish-Americans. I simply cannot do that. Sorry. It's all been taught to me since birth.
If it was as you say, that myself and all Irish-Americans simply threw on the tag because we hated being Americans, then I could easily drop the tag. But I can't, there is a strong identity there. That identity has very little to do with Ireland at all, except that is where my ancestors came from, but everything to do with my ancestors experience in America...hence the Irish-American part on the name.
Why don't Irish-English do the same thing? Completely different history, and I don't know their history, nor do I really care about it, because it has nothing to do with my own history. From the sounds of it, I wouldn't be able to relate to them anymore than an Irish-English person would be able to relate to mine.
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As to your housemate. Most people do refer to themselves as American...especially if they are white protestant - i.e. WASP.
White Catholics generally don't...you're Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc. It's just the way that it is.
If it means anything, Polish-Americans have to put up with a million 'Polack jokes', as the butt of every joke from the mainstream where I grew up was about them - how many polacks does it take to screw in a lightbulb, etc. (Sorry to the Polish-Americans out there probably sensitive to that huge racial slur), but just trying to convey that white Catholics have traditionally been outside the mainstream, hence the hyphens so often associated with them/us. |
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beercanman
Joined: 16 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
I'll quote Kiwiboy_NZ
" I am a human being" |
Best post on the thread. Problem is being a human being is just not enough for most people. They must be special and exclusive. Man, so many stupid human problems would disappear if everyone kept it simple like that. Nationalism? Gone. It's junk anyway. Racism? No need for that if we're all just people. Sexism, age discrimination, even being a foreigner? Gone or toned down into insignificance. All these silly religions? Gone. They are junk too. Suddenly we're just people and all these dumb labels and groups that oppose each other would vanish. Oh, to dream.
Idealism? Still around, but somewhat useless I guess. |
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Robot_Teacher
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Location: Robotting Around the World
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
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It wasn't 15 generations ago when my Irish and German ancestors came to America. People like my great grand parents sailed to America mostly during the mid 19th century on up to the early 20th century seeking opportunity, freedom, and fortune like so many as the economy, politics, quality of life for those not in the elite social stratus, and job market in Europe were terrible back then. This was a time when sewage ran in the over crowded cobblestone streets, masses were grossly exploited, food was too scarce and expensive, and well Europe was busting at the seams without the means to provide for it's people like it does today.
We still have Irish and German celebrations recognizing our European heritage in America today and our culture is composed of and still influenced by old European cultures, unfortunately so as old Europe style ideology doesn't work in today's world while modern Europe has progressed way past this due to cultural development out of experience. I too associate and relate well with Europe and feel very comfortable around Western Europeans.
Europe is too small to invite Euro Americans back into the E.U. so getting a work visa is difficult, getting an E.U. passport is just about impossible, and you need to have attended one of their unis to really be qualified for a good job. Today, the ancestral lands display awesomely open minded progressive forward thinking culture, investment in infrastructure and technology development, out in the streets display of the arts, worldly focused education, job market, vacation for nearly everyone, gap years to do RTW trips, no huge student loans, and high pay to support the high taxes financing the social systems, but it wasn't always so rosy like this. Only a robust economy supports this model that currently still offers some of the highest standard of living in the world, but it's long term sustainability is under question. There was a time when most Europeans were scrambling for the exit and it was tough to get on the boat to the other side where there was employment, land, and natural resources for the taking.
Last edited by Robot_Teacher on Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
You seem to imply that Irish-Americans hate being American or hate their country.
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I'm not. I'm just searching for a reason why they would call themselves this and other countries that experienced massive irish migration do not.
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Historically, in American history, Catholics were discriminated against. Irish had horrible stereotypes about them, and there were many signs 'Mickeys need not apply', and on and on. They were basically one very small step above African-American, but not by much.
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Same in England.
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Irish-American ARE American...and there is a long, strong, well-recorded history on it, you should really read about it, if this phenemonem baffles you to the degree that is does. |
And yet, they call themselves Irish-American. There has to be a cultural reason for this as it differs wildly from other countries that experienced Irish immigration.
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Why don't Irish-English do the same thing? Completely different history, and I don't know their history, nor do I really care about it, because it has nothing to do with my own history. From the sounds of it, I wouldn't be able to relate to them anymore than an Irish-English person would be able to relate to mine.
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mmm but yet exactly nothing different from the history you related of irish in america.
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| As to your housemate. Most people do refer to themselves as American...especially if they are white protestant - i.e. WASP. |
..therefore i identify myself as not being a WASP by calling myself an irish american.
Obviously not on an individual basis, but that might have been the original intent culturally. In fact it might have come from the other side. These could have been labels that were originally applied negatively and later became matters of pride.
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| White Catholics generally don't...you're Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc. It's just the way that it is. |
Well, I want to know why.
I got to say I am no longer really annoyed by the nationality-american thing and more interested in why. This would be a good topic for a book. |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
As to your housemate. Most people do refer to themselves as American...especially if they are white protestant - i.e. WASP.
White Catholics generally don't...you're Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc. It's just the way that it is.
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Yeah, this isn't my experience. It may be regional as has been suggested before. I find it more situational. Most of the time Americans simply refer to themselves as Americans. When an appropriate situation arises they add the hyphen.
This should be added to the discussion. One reason these hyphens are more common is the states is that the states are more tolerant of difference. Other countries are more hostile to immigrants and more demanding of homogenization. In other countries terms for differences exist. They are just not hyphens, and they are often perjorative.
I find the notion that Americans do this to be special somehow silly since the vast, vast majority of us are hyphens. Being a hyphen doesn't make you special. It makes you typical. |
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bundangbabo
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Have you read your own link?
The point is that it is simply wrong to say that Morrison is an "Anglo
Irish Protestant" and therby to associate him with one of the
religious sectarian factions.
Martin
'Anglo-Irish' is an outdated term just like 'Anglo-Indian' which had the same connotations as 'Anglo-Irish' Now - most protestants of a certain mindset may call themselves 'Ulstermen' or 'Ulster-Scots' or just simply 'British'
Anglo-Irish is an outdated term and nobody would refer to themselves as such.
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| You're just another internet expert and a lazy one at that. You call me arrogant. It takes one I guess. |
Having lived on Merseyside - I probably know more about Ireland and the Irish than you. 
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| Here's a thought. Maybe a term can be used for more than one thing. |
Not in this case. Its an oudated term that drew its last breath a long time ago.
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Hmmmm, I wonder if that has ever happened in the history of the world?
Were the romantics a group of poets or a rock band? |
Sure - the term may make some kind of miraculous comeback - hasn't up till now.
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| Oh, and I never said you couldn't get Mexican food in Dublin. I said it is terrible. I said that after saying I loved the city. It is a joke based on violation of expectations. You can look that up on the internet sometime. |
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Nobody cares!  Its a joke that Americans think they can go all over the planet and expect the same food to the same standards as back home - how many decent Mexican chefs do you think there are in Dublin? Do you think I am crying because I can't get fish, chips and mushy peas to the same standard as back home? |
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alphakennyone
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Location: city heights
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Nobody cares! Laughing Its a joke that Americans think they can go all over the planet and expect the same food to the same standards as back home - how many decent Mexican chefs do you think there are in Dublin? Do you think I am crying because I can't get fish, chips and mushy peas to the same standard as back home? |
Yes, I think you do cry over it. And the only reason I've ever heard of "HP Brown Sauce" is because of the number of times I've read Brits on this board yearning for it. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
As to your housemate. Most people do refer to themselves as American...especially if they are white protestant - i.e. WASP.
White Catholics generally don't...you're Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc. It's just the way that it is.
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Yeah, this isn't my experience. It may be regional as has been suggested before. I find it more situational. Most of the time Americans simply refer to themselves as Americans. When an appropriate situation arises they add the hyphen. |
That's true as well. Mostly just Americans.
But there are pockets...and it is very regional. I notice that Irish-American as an identity is very strong in and around Boston, in particular. I think its because they tended to live in large pockets of nothing but Irish. But yeah, overall, you're just American. But you'd still have the 'other' identity...the comedian Denis Leary comes to mind. If you listen to any of his comedy, there will be references to his Irish-American extended family. At the same time, he is still uncompromising American at the same time. I mean, you'd be American, but if someone else made a few seemingly Irish Catholic references, you'd be right into the conversation.
For my ancestral history, it was the Detroit automobile industry that brought in quite a few immigrants. Detroit also had large pockets of Polish (hence all the polack jokes I guess in Michigan). But also quite a few hard-working working-class Irish immigrants - thats where mine ended up.
Anyways, there are also large segments of Americans with Irish last names who seem to only have an Irish name and nothing else. I don't know, maybe diluted enough, of their parents weren't 'poor Irish'...which seem to be the ones that adhere more strongly to the identity and the Church.
The Irish in my family had incredibly large families...mentioned earlier, grandfather one of 17 kids, my dad was one of 9 kids. So as you can imagine, I'd have literally 100s and 100s of related people in and around the Detroit area. I think the identity from the 'Old World' lingers around quite a bit longer as the family is just so much larger to reinforce it.
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Anyways, thinking about it, there are tons of Americans with the Irish part in there somewhere, but no connection to Irish-American history or identity. Regarding other countries like Irish-Australians or something. I have never heard of that either.
But then again, I never heard of Australia bringing in the massive overwhelming numbers that the U.S. brought in. Perhaps you don't hear of Irish-Australians for the same reason you don't hear of Irish-Americans in Texas or Tennessee...meaning they just blended in and married with everyone else, and particularly Scots - are Scots protestants? The American South is mostly Scottish/English, and overwhelmingly strong Baptist...yet some of them have Irish names as well.
Seems to me that the East Coast of the U.S. still has large hyphen Americans all over the place...the rest of the U.S., not so much at all when it comes to European identities.
Then again, historically, the masses of European immigrants went through New York and Boston and distributed outward...so highly likely they created large enclaves...whereas the further you went away from there, the more you just ended up a whitewashed regular ol' Joe American - I guess they just went westward and focused on survival needs as opposed to the more established population centers of the East Coast which continuously had all of the recent immigrants always coming in fresh from the boats almost all of the time. |
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AmericanExile
Joined: 04 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| bundangbabo wrote: |
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Have you read your own link?
The point is that it is simply wrong to say that Morrison is an "Anglo
Irish Protestant" and therby to associate him with one of the
religious sectarian factions.
Martin
'Anglo-Irish' is an outdated term just like 'Anglo-Indian' which had the same connotations as 'Anglo-Irish' Now - most protestants of a certain mindset may call themselves 'Ulstermen' or 'Ulster-Scots' or just simply 'British'
Anglo-Irish is an outdated term and nobody would refer to themselves as such.
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| You're just another internet expert and a lazy one at that. You call me arrogant. It takes one I guess. |
Having lived on Merseyside - I probably know more about Ireland and the Irish than you.
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| Here's a thought. Maybe a term can be used for more than one thing. |
Not in this case. Its an oudated term that drew its last breath a long time ago.
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Hmmmm, I wonder if that has ever happened in the history of the world?
Were the romantics a group of poets or a rock band? |
Sure - the term may make some kind of miraculous comeback - hasn't up till now.
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| Oh, and I never said you couldn't get Mexican food in Dublin. I said it is terrible. I said that after saying I loved the city. It is a joke based on violation of expectations. You can look that up on the internet sometime. |
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Nobody cares! Its a joke that Americans think they can go all over the planet and expect the same food to the same standards as back home - how many decent Mexican chefs do you think there are in Dublin? Do you think I am crying because I can't get fish, chips and mushy peas to the same standard as back home? |
The first time I mentioned Van Morrison I said he did not like the term. The reason this person and Van Morrison, whose interview I was looking for, have to make comments about how inappropriate it is to call him Anglo-Irish is because he has been called Anglo-Irish. Or, did you imagine they were saying this randomly apropos of nothing? As in, don't call Van Morrison a jelly fart.
This is simple. It was suggested this was a historic term with no modern application. I've given evidence it is used in our times. It doesn't matter who you are or where you live or what credentials you have. There it is for all to see. You may not want it to be true. You may not believe it is true, and that's your right. Shout at the wind. But, there is the evidence. It's a single link, but that's enough to make my case. Short of proving that I committed a fraud by mocking up that page, the argument about this is over. Rave on stranger to logic.
You have this bizarre disconnect from reality. I make a joke about Mexican food. You didn't understand it. This common form eluded your comprehension. I clarify. You attack again in a way that suggests a) you still don't get it is a joke, and b) that you have substituted your misunderstanding for reality.
I get you hate Americans. I feel sorry for you for carrying that around. I do. We are everywhere. There is no getting away from us. It must be hard on you. I have a friend who really enjoyed Prozac. Mellowed him right out. Might help you get through the day. |
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Lunar Groove Gardener
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Location: 1987 Subaru
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: |
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My American hometown has festivals for nearly every ethnicity.
German, Italian, Mexican, Polish, African, Asian, Native American, Jamaican, French etc. etc.
These are huge celebrations which occur throughout the year. They are organized by groups which embrace, support and celebrate their own ancestry. This sort of thing brings people together and encourages learning about these various cultures. They've been doing as such since their people came to town on boats from far away...go figure. Our grandparents lived in Italian, Polish, German etc. neighborhoods.
A member of such a group might well at times identify himself in the way which the title of the OP explicitly disdains. Why not?
There are community centers for most of these ethnic groups which have been around a long long time. Traditionally they served to help new immigrants from whichever country and provide support for people in that community. People grow up being a part of this sort of community and so they identify with it. Parents might even require that their kids help out with various functions of the group while growing up.
These groups contribute regularly and in various ways to the community in which they live as well as to the country of their ancestral origins.
It could be that such traditional ethnic groups and activities are a prominent feature of the northern states and less so in the southern U.S., I don't really know.
They must do Octoberfest elsewhere, and if so it'd be likely that you'd find a few German-whatevers there organizing it.
Some of us do speak the language of our grandfathers and have learned something about life through their eyes and the eyes of their parents.
Looking at some of these posts, I do tire of the stereotyping which occurs continuously here on Dave's.
One unkind word requires a thousand kind ones to overcome.
Looking for a better world, within. |
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Bloopity Bloop
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Location: Seoul yo
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bundangbabo wrote: |
Nobody cares! Its a joke that Americans think they can go all over the planet and expect the same food to the same standards as back home - how many decent Mexican chefs do you think there are in Dublin? Do you think I am crying because I can't get fish, chips and mushy peas to the same standard as back home? |
It's a joke that you (and a lot of other Europeans/Canadians--notice that I didn't say ALL Europeans/Canadians) think all Americans are the same. God it's annoying.
I don't see how this hatred towards Americans is any different than the hatred towards Koreans the mods claim violates this website's TOS.
Of course, I'm not just getting mad over this one post. It's just the constant jabs at ALL Americans on this website I am beginning to get sick of.
I apologize for the asshats from my country you may have had sub-par experiences with. On the other hand, I don't need apologies from the French for the incredibly RACIST treatment my family (I'm Asian-American, btw) suffered while in Paris to still understand that not all French are rude, racist dicks. Nor do I need apologies from the drunk Brits that threw racial slurs at me to still understand that not all Brits are chronic, racist alcoholics.
These are isolated incidents, no? Isn't that the same as my fellow American complaining about not having Mexican food in Dublin (which he claims was a joke in the first place)?
I probably should have just started a thread asking America haters: why? Why the blind hate towards an entire nation?
If any mods are reading this, does this not make sense? |
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calicoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| AmericanExile wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
As to your housemate. Most people do refer to themselves as American...especially if they are white protestant - i.e. WASP.
White Catholics generally don't...you're Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, etc. It's just the way that it is.
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Yeah, this isn't my experience. It may be regional as has been suggested before. I find it more situational. Most of the time Americans simply refer to themselves as Americans. When an appropriate situation arises they add the hyphen.
This should be added to the discussion. One reason these hyphens are more common is the states is that the states are more tolerant of difference. Other countries are more hostile to immigrants and more demanding of homogenization. In other countries terms for differences exist. They are just not hyphens, and they are often perjorative.
I find the notion that Americans do this to be special somehow silly since the vast, vast majority of us are hyphens. Being a hyphen doesn't make you special. It makes you typical. |
Yes, there are regional differences for sure, but I think outside the country we are all American. I think that is across the board. It is inside the country and upon closer reflection in dialogue that distinctions are made.
I'm from New York, and when I'm abroad I am American unless someone asks or further discussion comes up, and at home of course I'm a hyphen, because it's obvious that we are all Americans and that is just part of American identity - we are not all one homegenous bunch and this is a point of interest. We are a multi-ethnic and multi-national country, and always have been, and this is what has shaped our history and national identity.
I don't get the people who state that this is somehow an American "tactic". As someone mentioned previously, hyphens and national/ethnic identity has been around a long time, and it is often political and historical in nature. The imposition of identity on a people from the outside and the disassociation of ethncity/race from national identity can be just as political and "desperate" in the eyes of indigenous groups and other ethnics. |
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