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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Sauce for the goose? You've got someone stating that "evangelicals support torture" without a shred of proof. |
Right, just like when you said there was not a "shred of proof" that the killer was anti-abortion.
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Anti-abortion groups are distancing themselves from the killer. They've called him a lunatic.
And anti-abortion does not equate to murder of abortion providing doctors. |
Indeed. But this does not mean that the killer was not anti-abortion. Just as a lot of Muslims have denounced Osama bin laden, but bin laden is still a Muslim.
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And he provided no proof for this statement. So before answering the question...one should be sure that the question is legit.
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I agree with you that it is not really relevant whether or not evangelicals per se support torture, and that the blogger was chasing a red herring on that point. That is why I re-phrased the question in my second post...
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| If you think it is justifiable to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" against Al Qaeda and other Muslim terrorists, do you also think the same techniques should be applied to anti-abortion terrorists? |
Chris wrote:
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| Its really a stretch to compare the two groups. The Muslim terrorists killed at least 3000 in one day - and they would gladly kill thousands more, including abortion doctors, if given the chance. But there have been what, 5 abortion doctors killed in the last 36 years by a few random wackos. Probably not a fair comparison. |
Acording to the news reports, the alleged killer has claimed to know about other similar attacks in the planning. Okay, maybe he's just talking trash, but aren't we justified in finding out exactly what he does know? And if we accept that waterboarding is a legitimate method of interrogation, why not use it?
But okay. If you don't like my example, what about Timothy McVeigh? He killed far more people than the anti-abortion terrorists, and at the time he was apprehnded, the authorities did not know how extensive his group was or how numerous their plans. Should he have been subjected to enhanced interrogation?
Steve wrote:
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| While I plainly understand your need for consistency in application of the law your comparison lacks any real sense of proportionality. To equate what an anti-abortionist does with what a terrorist organization does is disingenuous at best. Methinks your oft-declared atheism is getting the best of you. |
Steve, when an anti-abortionist's activities include gunning down doctors and blowing up clinics in furtherance of his ideological ends, then he is a terrorist. And if there is more than one of them, then they are a terrorist organization.
And where do you get the idea that I am an atheist? I believe in God. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ManintheMiddle wrote: |
OTOH:
While I plainly understand your need for consistency in application of the law your comparison lacks any real sense of proportionality. To equate what an anti-abortionist does with what a terrorist organization does is disingenuous at best. Methinks your oft-declared atheism is getting the best of you. |
Wrong poster.
| On the other hand wrote: |
| But I wouldn't exactly call myself an agnostic either. I would at least qualify it by saying that I'm an agnostic leaning toward believing in God. Though I could probably best be categorized as a deist, which I know is really 18th-Century freemason and everything, but I have a difficult time grasping how and why the universe would just suddenly get itself going one day without something making it happen. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:32 am Post subject: |
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OTOH poses a really good question.
If it was quite OK to perform 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on loonie religious fundamentalists who were a danger to Americans, shouldn't it be OK to do the same to this other loonie religious fundamentalist? After all, there's supposedly a 'ticking bomb' with a whole terrorist cell out there with plans to perform Christian jihad on American medical practitioners. If you believe the former scenario was justified, then you are a hypocrite if you believe it is not justified in the latter case. In fact, at least with the latter there's even more justification, because we have a fairly good inkling that the guy is guilty, whereas with many of the poor sods incarcerated in Guantanamo, the chances are they'd been picked up mistakenly.
My own take (just for those idiots who will now assume I'm endorsing torture) I don't believe we should ever go down the path of torture, because even though this guy no doubt deserves it, in the end it isgenerally ineffective anyway and too many innocents will get burnt. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:06 am Post subject: |
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OTOH replied:
You may call me MITM, or Bill for short.
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| when an anti-abortionist's activities include gunning down doctors and blowing up clinics in furtherance of his ideological ends, then he is a terrorist. |
I agree. Where did I state otherwise?
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| And if there is more than one of them, then they are a terrorist organization. |
Ah, well, here's the sticking point. You see, you haven't convinced me that this is a concerted effort. Yes, I know that there are many fundamentalist Christian fanatics but that doesn't mean this is a coordinated effort.
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| And where do you get the idea that I am an atheist? I believe in God. |
A very long time back I thought you said as much; or perhaps you claimed to be an agnostic? If neither, then I rejoice! (Perhaps I'm getting you confused with another long time poster whose username escapes me at the moment. Maybe MindMe2?) |
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RJjr
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:30 am Post subject: |
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The blogger was probably referring to the study done by Pew. http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/04/pew_church-goers_like_torture_more.php
That's one reason I don't even bother going to church anymore when relatives or friends invite me. Jesus told his followers to not just love their neighbors, but to even love their enemies. While I think it's wonderful that these churchgoers pray for our soldiers, I don't see why they don't, just once, even if it's just a token gesture in an attempt to appease Jesus, pray for the children in the combat zones and innocent people who have lost their homes or loved ones.
In the 1940s, when white Christians from central Europe were putting Gypsy people and Jewish people into gas chambers and ovens, I bet many, many more prayers in churches were said for Axis soldiers than for the people dying in death camps or for the women and children in places like Leningrad who were getting bombed, shelled, and starved by planes and men adorned with crosses. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| You see, you haven't convinced me that this is a concerted effort. |
From Wikipedia...
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At the time she attempted to murder Tiller, Shannon had been an anti-abortion activist for five years and had written letters of support to Michael Griffin, who murdered David Gunn. She called convicted murderer Griffin "the awesomest, greatest hero of our time." She traveled to the Wichita clinic, a site of frequent demonstrations by abortion-rights and pro-life activists, and shot Tiller with a semiautomatic pistol.[5]
At her trial in state court, she testified that there was nothing immoral about trying to kill Tiller. The jury deliberated for only an hour before convicting Shannon of attempted murder; she was sentenced to 11 years.[5][6]
Shannon signed the Army of God's statement in support of the actions of Paul Jennings Hill while incarcerated in Lansing, Kansas. [7]
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So yes, some of these people have been in contact with one another, and it would not be unreasonable for the police to inquire about connections. In fact, I am sure the police do make such inquiries as part of their interrogations, only without the alleged benfit of water-boarding.
The book I have linked to contains descriptions of some of the contacts made between the most militant anti-abortion activists, including the people who were locked up in Lansing together.
http://tinyurl.com/ncc559 |
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Chris2007
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Chris wrote:
| Quote: |
| Its really a stretch to compare the two groups. The Muslim terrorists killed at least 3000 in one day - and they would gladly kill thousands more, including abortion doctors, if given the chance. But there have been what, 5 abortion doctors killed in the last 36 years by a few random wackos. Probably not a fair comparison. |
Acording to the news reports, the alleged killer has claimed to know about other similar attacks in the planning. Okay, maybe he's just talking trash, but aren't we justified in finding out exactly what he does know? And if we accept that waterboarding is a legitimate method of interrogation, why not use it?
But okay. If you don't like my example, what about Timothy McVeigh? He killed far more people than the anti-abortion terrorists, and at the time he was apprehnded, the authorities did not know how extensive his group was or how numerous their plans. Should he have been subjected to enhanced interrogation? |
I'm not sure I would necessarily approve of waterboarding, but if we are going to accept waterboarding as a legit form of interrogation, then yes, Timothy McVeigh would be fair game. It would be fair game for Roeder too, if there was significant info to think he knew of other planned killings. |
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ManintheMiddle
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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OTOH proffered evidence:
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| So yes, some of these people have been in contact with one another |
Really grasping at straws here; this is all very tenuous and in any case doesn't amount to more than a fart in a gale wind when compared to Al-Qaeda's intricate network.
Chris2007 wrote:
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| Timothy McVeigh would be fair game. It would be fair game for Roeder too, if there was significant info to think he knew of other planned killings. |
Agreed.
RJjr conjectured:
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| I bet many, many more prayers in churches were said for Axis soldiers than for the people dying in death camps or for the women and children in places like Leningrad who were getting bombed, shelled, and starved by planes and men adorned with crosses. |
You've really outdone yourself this time! What a bonehead contention. Truly amazingly audacious guesswork on your part. I'd venture to say (based albeit on what I know from my own family at the time and the oral histories in Stud Terkel's The Good War) that just the opposite was the case. It was true, however, that prayers were uplifted for German soldiers who fought in the First World War in ethnic enclaves like Milwaukee. |
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Chris2007
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
OTOH poses a really good question.
If it was quite OK to perform 'enhanced interrogation techniques' on loonie religious fundamentalists who were a danger to Americans, shouldn't it be OK to do the same to this other loonie religious fundamentalist? After all, there's supposedly a 'ticking bomb' with a whole terrorist cell out there with plans to perform Christian jihad on American medical practitioners. If you believe the former scenario was justified, then you are a hypocrite if you believe it is not justified in the latter case. In fact, at least with the latter there's even more justification, because we have a fairly good inkling that the guy is guilty, whereas with many of the poor sods incarcerated in Guantanamo, the chances are they'd been picked up mistakenly.
My own take (just for those idiots who will now assume I'm endorsing torture) I don't believe we should ever go down the path of torture, because even though this guy no doubt deserves it, in the end it isgenerally ineffective anyway and too many innocents will get burnt. |
Big_Birds justice: Innocent babies okay to torture. Guilty terrorists, no way. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
OTOH proffered evidence:
Quote:
So yes, some of these people have been in contact with one another
Really grasping at straws here; this is all very tenuous and in any case doesn't amount to more than a fart in a gale wind when compared to Al-Qaeda's intricate network.
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Maybe. But the point is, we didn't always know exactly what the link was between these various anti-abortion terrorists, except we knew that some linkage, however minor, had been proven. So, when the police were in the process of trying to determine whether Joe Blow who gunned down a doctor had connections to someone else planning a similar crime(and I can almost guarantee you that they did pursue that line of questioning, however fleetingly), they would, according to the logic of the people who defend Bush/Cheney, be justified in using waterboarding.
Chris wrote:
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| I'm not sure I would necessarily approve of waterboarding, but if we are going to accept waterboarding as a legit form of interrogation, then yes, Timothy McVeigh would be fair game. |
Well, if you'd be against waterboarding in general, for both Al Qaeda suspects and McVeigh, then your position is consistent. What I'm wondering about is the people who think anyone who favors the abolition of waterboarding is a threat to American security. Since waterboarding was never even suggested for McVeigh, were the people who never suggested it also a threat to national security? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Sauce for the goose? You've got someone stating that "evangelicals support torture" without a shred of proof. |
Right, just like when you said there was not a "shred of proof" that the killer was anti-abortion.
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Anti-abortion groups are distancing themselves from the killer. They've called him a lunatic.
And anti-abortion does not equate to murder of abortion providing doctors. |
Indeed. But this does not mean that the killer was not anti-abortion. Just as a lot of Muslims have denounced Osama bin laden, but bin laden is still a Muslim.
My point was that the killer didn't kill because he was anti-abortion...he killed because he's a lunatic. Just as Bin Ladin didn't kill because he's a Muslim, he killed because he's a raving sociopath.
| Quote: |
And he provided no proof for this statement. So before answering the question...one should be sure that the question is legit.
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I agree with you that it is not really relevant whether or not evangelicals per se support torture, and that the blogger was chasing a red herring on that point. That is why I re-phrased the question in my second post...
| Quote: |
| If you think it is justifiable to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" against Al Qaeda and other Muslim terrorists, do you also think the same techniques should be applied to anti-abortion terrorists? |
If there are grounds to believe that the threat is critical and time-sensitive and furthermore that the person in custody has information that will foil the threat...then it doesn't matter what the religion of the terrorist. I'd prefer waterboarding or other "enhanced techniques" be used as a last resort but when it comes right down to it, I'd rather he suffer some pain and humiliation at the expense of his civil rights then watch my loved ones being blown up on the six o'clock news. And I doubt too many people would feel otherwise.
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I'd rather he suffer some pain and humiliation at the expense of his civil rights then watch my loved ones being blown up on the six o'clock news.
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Funny, I'd rather detainees be put through procedural due process and interrogated properly, rather than have them tortured and be later released to blow up my loved ones on the six o'clock news. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| but when it comes right down to it, I'd rather he suffer some pain and humiliation at the expense of his civil rights then watch my loved ones being blown up on the six o'clock news. And I doubt too many people would feel otherwise. |
I feel otherwise; I like social safety, but -- even the ethical considerations aside -- this sort of governmental activity is like to reduce overall safety rather than increase it according to this interrogator.
What about the families whose loved ones die because of terrorism caused by torture? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Should Christian terrorists get enhanced interrogation? |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I'd rather he suffer some pain and humiliation at the expense of his civil rights then watch my loved ones being blown up on the six o'clock news.
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Funny, I'd rather detainees be put through procedural due process and interrogated properly, rather than have them tortured and be later released to blow up my loved ones on the six o'clock news. |
It's only funny because not only did you take my quote out of context you also edited it to remove the most relevant part.
I said " when it comes right down to it,I'd rather he suffer some pain and humilation at the expense of his civil rights then watch my loved ones being blown up on the six o'clock news."
In other words if waterboarding was the only thing to make him talk and the threat was immediate and critical, then I would support waterboarding.
I also pointed out this should only take place if we have grounds for believing this guy is a terrorist (in other words proof).
If you have proof that someone is a terrorist...he isn't going to be let free to blow up anyone.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:32 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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