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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Let them hate us so long as they pay us! |
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ESL Milk "Everyday
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| The Gipkik wrote: |
| It's easy to let your teaching soul die here for an easy (read: mindless) life and a few extra coins in your pocket. |
The English Teacher In Korea Rises Up And Speaks
by ESL Milk
I remember my brain
was a great starry sky,
across which the fireworks exploded--
I gleefully watched from within.
Now gelatinous mysteries
drool across its gooey pillow,
as I smile at the customers--
my IQ is a terrible countdown.
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: |
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that 25000 dollar canadian statistic is bullocks. 4 yr uni grads are usually 40k in the hole for TUITION. Tuition doesnt cover the cost of living, food, or textbooks and other equipment. It's more realistic to say Canadian undergrads are spending 50k or more for 4 yrs.
i have 43k in OSAP for doing 4 yrs. That's not 25000. I dont know anyone that payed 25000 for a 4 yr education in ontario. They must be living in some other hick province. Those stats are very misleading to say the least.
It seems like Canada and the US are the only places with ridiculous tuition. Ive heard people in the UK crying over 5k .... |
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Kurtz
Joined: 05 Jan 2007
Location: ples bilong me
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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I can't say from my experiences Koreans hate me or feel jealous. I don't think a salary of 2.1-2.5 is very high in Korea, nothing to be jealous of. Also, if the image you portray of yourself is a professional one such as dressing well, I feel Koreans treat you with respect, regardless of your profession.
I wish I was only 7 million won in debt when I finished my schooling. Koreans face the same problems as all people do trying to get an education, so why would they take it out on us just because we are in their country, doing something in general they can't do themselves?
My co-workers do know that I'm earning good money in my school's after school program, which puts me over the 3 million won mark which does get some jealousy though. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Our salaries are reasonable; not so high, not so low. However, this is relative to being a public servant, a virtuous job in Korea, but it is regarded right up there with volunteering, monetarily.
There are many reasons why they "hate" us, but thinking it is because we are paid extravagantly isn't really the truth. Considering how many of us are simply not qualified to be "teachers", then, coupled with all the perks, the pay does start to look relatively high.
To say that they "hate" us may be a tad self-aggrandizing; we really believe we are all that, so when a bit of envy comes into the picture, we over-interpret it and incorrectly. Like other small, crowded countries, (GB, for example) many want to get out of here, or wish for something a bit better. Korea is a tough place to live for Koreans.
Koreans are also brainwashed with this whole "globalization" thing; they feel the burden imposed on them to learn English, which frankly isn't as necessary as they would like the population to believe.
Perhaps they see it is odd that we choose jobs for which we are largely unqualified for? Yes, they offer the jobs, and that is messed up, but what's equally confusing is why we choose to take them. We too are falsely convinced that the minimum requirements put forward (by the same institutions that perpetuate the "global culture" stuff) will be sufficient to teach, when it is clear on a daily basis that many of us are in fact well over our heads. If someone offered me an engineering job, I am not so full of myself to take it, despite meeting the strangely low prerequisites, as I am not an engineer and would probably perform poorly in that position. The real engineers probably wouldn't think too highly of me either.
Unless of course, I got my act together, took some responsibility and did some training. However, why would I do that? There is no monetary reward for such action and heck, I can live without their respect, right? |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Xuanzang wrote: |
| Ukon wrote: |
I asked some koreans about this....
For starters, none of them mentioned that jealousy stuff....although I'm sure some do wish they made the same amount of money.
Instead, they all said it had to do with the low standard of hagwon teachers....also, they were pissed the majority of them didn't express any interest in the culture or learning the language outside of banging K-girls. Basically, they know getting a hagwon job is easy and don't really respect them for working there....they do seem to respect other english jobs more(PS, Univ, well respected hagwon). Since Hagwon jobs are pretty low on the totem pole, they do wonder why some older teachers would take them.
They'll give me or my friends who learn korean discounts, free deals, meals, etc.....but for joe blow hagwon teacher with a backpack on 24/7, who can't count to ten in korean, and walks around exclusively with the same 2-4 foreigners everywhere? Pfftt....
Hagwons have a shady rep as a whole...naturally, the mercenaries working(korean or foreigner) for Mr. Kim's edu-money maker are not held in high regard.... Do people respect Car Salesmen? Only if you sell Porches and Ferraris....otherwise, it doesn't matter how much your pulling in....your always gonna be that guy who "you haggle with when you wanna buy a car". |
Mercenaries are in all walks of English education here in Korea. You think all PS teachers are in it for the love of the public school game? Your friends sound elitist and stuck up. You and them turning your nose up at hagwon teachers. Many decent people go and work at hagwons. Many of us started out at a franchise or mom and pop hagwon when we first got here. It might be for profit but aren`t most things in Korea...
Oh and judging from my district workshop. Backpacks are in style with more than just hagwon teachers. |
I just asked for the public perceptions from koreans...I know quite alot....they don't think ultra highly of PS jobs, but better than hagwons. I imagine something like hackers would have a higher rep however or some elite, specialty hagwon.
For most Hagwons, you'll find less competition than a McDonalds janitor....Of course koreans don't respect those jobs....would you respect them back home??? They think the PS job is somewhat more prestigious as well as Univ.....It may not be true(depending on which school district or Univ.), but that's the way they see it. |
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ekul
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
Location: [Mod Edit]
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| E_athlete wrote: |
| It seems like Canada and the US are the only places with ridiculous tuition. Ive heard people in the UK crying over 5k .... |
North American tuition is pretty high, i'm around 18million won in debt but i'm lucky. The next crop of students from the UK will be in around 40million. So while the American education system is a rip off, the UK is slowly coming round to the same money grabbing mentality. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
should add that I'm not American. I should also say that the very first Korean I ever met - was working alongside me picking vegetables in Australia. Contract work - in near 40 deg heat. She was living on potatoes - and the other vegetables I gave her from the farm I was working on. She was working illegally on a tourist visa (like all the other motivated Koreans I met working on Aussie farms), so she could save enough money to go to college in the USA.
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But I don't think too many western college students are working on potato farms now are they?
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| I'm not being prejudiced and narrow minded. You're assuming that every poster here is American. Many university students in my country can only attend university when they're adults. You've obviously had a very lucky (and sheltered) life, if your parents paid for your education. That's not the norm where I come from. You either take a student loan and study when you're young - or, you work, save, and then study when you can pay for it (although the govt. sometimes gives small financial incentives to adult students). |
But I do believe that the jist of your post was that this was a uniquelly Korean situation and reaction. I used the American example as a way to show that this was not unique to Korea. You also implied that your method was the way the rest of the world does it. The American example disproves it. I was prejudiced in assuming you were American. You were prejudiced in the premise of your argument.
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| While $25,000 tuition fees p.a. might sound like a lot of money to someone fresh out of college (paid for by their parents), I can assure you that amount palls in relation to the lost income opportunities adult students take when they study. Try losing $20-30,000 a year in income while you're still raising a young family. Now that's expensive. This may seem off-topic, but it's not. I'm trying to show that college education has always been expensive - and in the real world, you have to work, save, and pay for it. |
If you want to talk lost income opportunities- think about what that money spent on college could be used for- i.e. opening a business. The reason you go to school is to make money. Well why not skip the middle-man and all the debt payments and go straight to the investment stage?
You claimed to have a wealth of labor skills- perhaps instead of spending on college, you could have gotten a loan and purchased an old fixer-upper or three and flipped them. That's what my pops did to pay for college. Never used his degree for anything. Thought college was the biggest waste of time and money.
Incidentally before you ascribe to me the status of spoilt playboy- My family may be rather wealthy, but we did not live rich. I lived in a small house, and our family always drove beaters. As a child I felt 'poor' compared to the rest of my schoolmates. Yes, both my grandfather and father were President's of succesful companies, but they new how to balance the benefits of wealth, with developing the proper temperment in their children. (At least I hope so in my case, for pops' sake.)
I worked a 'crap job' for the last 8 years before comming over here. I am not fresh out of college. Before I worked here, I worked as a manager at a restaurant that had been robbed 4 times at gunpoint over 5 years. I lived in a bad neighborhood on the bad side of town while I worked there.
The thing is, I'm not ashamed to admit the benefits of wealth, or to enjoy its priviliges. But it sure sounds like you are awfully jealous of me, or people like me. You can hate all you want and call me spoiled. Fine. But in the end I believe my family did things the right way. I'll take my free ride for college and smile while it goes on. Only a fool would turn down a free college education just to prove a point about 'how he had to do it himself'.
As for the Koreans- yes they are going throught the same thing as in America. This is not a unique reaction. This is not a Korean phenomenon. These are real issues people have with the current college system. One that I think is garbage. |
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polonius
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| E_athlete wrote: |
that 25000 dollar canadian statistic is bullocks. 4 yr uni grads are usually 40k in the hole for TUITION. Tuition doesnt cover the cost of living, food, or textbooks and other equipment. It's more realistic to say Canadian undergrads are spending 50k or more for 4 yrs.
i have 43k in OSAP for doing 4 yrs. That's not 25000. I dont know anyone that payed 25000 for a 4 yr education in ontario. They must be living in some other hick province. Those stats are very misleading to say the least.
It seems like Canada and the US are the only places with ridiculous tuition. Ive heard people in the UK crying over 5k .... |
If you are refering to the stat that I posted, it says that the average debt for a student per year is around $22000. That takes into account all those whose parents pay for their schooling who are at $0 debt, then there are those such as yourself who have $43K in debt. (Crappy, I feel for you) There are some students who travel away from home for studies, and have to pay rent, and that is a factor, then there are those that live at home during university, and they only have books and tuition to pay for.
It is simply an average of all university students. Parents all over have been telling their children that they need to get a University degree. Another average, out of all my friends, those that went to college and got a trade education as oppose to a degree at university, are doing much better financially. |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| polonius wrote: |
| E_athlete wrote: |
that 25000 dollar canadian statistic is bullocks. 4 yr uni grads are usually 40k in the hole for TUITION. Tuition doesnt cover the cost of living, food, or textbooks and other equipment. It's more realistic to say Canadian undergrads are spending 50k or more for 4 yrs.
i have 43k in OSAP for doing 4 yrs. That's not 25000. I dont know anyone that payed 25000 for a 4 yr education in ontario. They must be living in some other hick province. Those stats are very misleading to say the least.
It seems like Canada and the US are the only places with ridiculous tuition. Ive heard people in the UK crying over 5k .... |
If you are refering to the stat that I posted, it says that the average debt for a student per year is around $22000. That takes into account all those whose parents pay for their schooling who are at $0 debt, then there are those such as yourself who have $43K in debt. (Crappy, I feel for you) There are some students who travel away from home for studies, and have to pay rent, and that is a factor, then there are those that live at home during university, and they only have books and tuition to pay for.
It is simply an average of all university students. Parents all over have been telling their children that they need to get a University degree. Another average, out of all my friends, those that went to college and got a trade education as oppose to a degree at university, are doing much better financially. |
polonius try looking up how much tuition is for ANY degree is ontario. The lowest I've seen is an arts degree for 5.3k/yr. That's the lowest. There's also the fact that the study doesnt take into account 40% of the uni grads that went on to pursue degrees after their bachelors. So the statistic is very misleading. The statistic is talking about ONLY 60% of Canadians that didnt pursue anything after their bachelors. This changes up the numbers a lot because all the people in the sciences that pay 10k/yr and do a masters or go to med school are not even included in the survey. It's skewing the data to represent uni students that did cheap degrees in arts and humanities. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Steelrails"]
| Quote: |
should add that I'm not American. I should also say that the very first Korean I ever met - was working alongside me picking vegetables in Australia. Contract work - in near 40 deg heat. She was living on potatoes - and the other vegetables I gave her from the farm I was working on. She was working illegally on a tourist visa (like all the other motivated Koreans I met working on Aussie farms), so she could save enough money to go to college in the USA.
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But I don't think too many western college students are working on potato farms now are they?
No but I did meet a good many in Canada off to the forest to plant trees.
I being one of them. I also heard of a good many that picked fruit in B.C.
Dang, if I had only known...potatoes is war itz att! |
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polonius
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| E_athlete wrote: |
| polonius wrote: |
| E_athlete wrote: |
that 25000 dollar canadian statistic is bullocks. 4 yr uni grads are usually 40k in the hole for TUITION. Tuition doesnt cover the cost of living, food, or textbooks and other equipment. It's more realistic to say Canadian undergrads are spending 50k or more for 4 yrs.
i have 43k in OSAP for doing 4 yrs. That's not 25000. I dont know anyone that payed 25000 for a 4 yr education in ontario. They must be living in some other hick province. Those stats are very misleading to say the least.
It seems like Canada and the US are the only places with ridiculous tuition. Ive heard people in the UK crying over 5k .... |
If you are refering to the stat that I posted, it says that the average debt for a student per year is around $22000. That takes into account all those whose parents pay for their schooling who are at $0 debt, then there are those such as yourself who have $43K in debt. (Crappy, I feel for you) There are some students who travel away from home for studies, and have to pay rent, and that is a factor, then there are those that live at home during university, and they only have books and tuition to pay for.
It is simply an average of all university students. Parents all over have been telling their children that they need to get a University degree. Another average, out of all my friends, those that went to college and got a trade education as oppose to a degree at university, are doing much better financially. |
polonius try looking up how much tuition is for ANY degree is ontario. The lowest I've seen is an arts degree for 5.3k/yr. That's the lowest. There's also the fact that the study doesnt take into account 40% of the uni grads that went on to pursue degrees after their bachelors. So the statistic is very misleading. The statistic is talking about ONLY 60% of Canadians that didnt pursue anything after their bachelors. This changes up the numbers a lot because all the people in the sciences that pay 10k/yr and do a masters or go to med school are not even included in the survey. It's skewing the data to represent uni students that did cheap degrees in arts and humanities. |
I am just going based on the numbers I have read. I don't doubt that there are people out there with more debt. And certainly those who go on to Masters programs will incur more debt. Still it is an average.
The bottom line is, most western countries average student debt is much higher than Korean students, so they have nothing to be jealous about within this regard.
http://www.cfs-fcee.ca/html/english/media/mediapage.php?release_id=983
| Quote: |
Canadian Federation of Students
Wednesday, April 22, 2009
OTTAWA-- One in three post-secondary graduates reported difficulty repaying their student loan two years after graduation, according to a new study released today by Statistics Canada. The study also found that average student debt two years after graduation was $20,000.
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Michelle
Joined: 18 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Why some of them hate English teachers |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
Jealousy.
Here:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/06/123_46598.html
.... although I agree with comments that the debt load they are mentioning isn't that high. The problem is the clash within Korean society which dictates you should have XXXXXX million won before you even consider marrying. Even if that's 10 years down the road for these guys, they still need a job to afford the lifestyle their friends are enjoying.
Also, housing costs are insane. Imagine the giant mountain in front of the average Korean young person if they don't have parents rich enough to help them purchase a new home for marriage (or even part of it) because they are also in debt? At the same time, they know they will have to provide for said parents down the road.
This seems to breed a lot of jealousy, hatred, and resentment of English teachers -- especially when the news media feeds these kids with story after negative story about us. We're depicted as rich playboys who only work here because we speak English (something they have to work very hard at to learn).
I don't encounter the negative anti-western Koreans much. Most of what I see comes from the media and netizens. It's out there, though, and it's all about jealousy. |
Hi,
it is natural for them to feel resentful if they can no longer receive some of the benefits of Korean culture (family assistance and apartments at weddings, loans, excellent education) but must still fulfill the obligations (looking after their parents in law upon retirement. |
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Michelle
Joined: 18 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL Milk "Everyday wrote: |
| The Gipkik wrote: |
| It's easy to let your teaching soul die here for an easy (read: mindless) life and a few extra coins in your pocket. |
The English Teacher In Korea Rises Up And Speaks
by ESL Milk
I remember my brain
was a great starry sky,
across which the fireworks exploded--
I gleefully watched from within.
Now gelatinous mysteries
drool across its gooey pillow,
as I smile at the customers--
my IQ is a terrible countdown.
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it's funny 'cos it's true....
Thanks for the poem |
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Tobias
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| And all that tuition money is being paid by people whose investments won't pay off. At least most people's won't. This is the reason student loans are guaranteed and not even bankruptcy can exorcise them. Lenders know most college students are investing in dry holes so demand the loans be guaranteed. Korea is one place people can go repay their creditors in a reasonable time. This is by design. |
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