Korean Job Discussion Forums

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

I had a moment today-- you probably all know them-- when I tangibly felt the pointlessness of this job.

This is going to sound pretty low-- and I know we've all been low in these jobs-- but it all started over some stickers.

I tend to just hand the sheet out and trust the kids to take only one (yes, I use stickers for middle school-- they love it, so shut up)-- but the other week I caught a third year middle school student stealing basically a whole sheet of stickers for herself.

Of course I tried to explain to them all that this was wrong, and took back all the stickers she had stolen PLUS the same amount out of the ones she had earned in the past. I explained it was because if she thought it was fair to steal from me, then she should have no problem with me doing the same to her.

But of course, it was a terrible injustice. Never mind that the only reason they got stickers in the first place was because I went out and spent my own money on them. They were saying things like 'she got those using her own power' and such, like stealing about 15 stickers from me was okay (no kidding-- she cleaned me out) and she should have gotten away with just being able to put them all back.

So this week, the whole class does very little except make comments on my physical appearance-- my hairy arms, etc. and added to that, they go and say 'We don't need to study English. You can't help us'. Really, it was hard to tell what they meant (did they want to play a game, or was it something more?), but I assume they were saying that my presence there is useless to them.

I know that I should have done something responsible and teacherly at that point, but I just thought, @#$%ing heck... these kids have no hope. They're not rich, they're not brilliant... and if they are, they're definitely not getting what the richer brilliant kids are getting. A few of them are clever enough (at least at English), but they're mostly girls, and we know what usually happens to girls in Korean society. The boys are propped up, pushed, whipped into shape, and idolized... the girls are encouraged, but not respected unless they're cute or cordial. Ultimately though, most of them will not go on to use English in their daily lives.

This job (at least in my case) is pointless-- regardless of what I'm willing to bring to it, the kids see me as a pointless diversion which may or may not be enjoyable to them, the value of which is gauged by that quality... while their parents may or may not see it as an extension of the American 'occupation'... and really, the only way these kids can accept it is if they don't really think about what they might DO with it in the future, and just trust everyone who says it's important.

And I thought for a second about who these kids are, where they're probably going, and what their job prospects are going to be-- and even though I didn't visibly react, I said to myself 'most of these kids are going to be farmers, merchants, factory workers or housewives... why DO they need English?'. They're studying and slaving and studying and slaving, and odds are-- it's still going to get them nowhere, because of their social backgrounds. There's no sense in pretending these kids are something they're not and never will be-- the KET at my school has told me this on many occasions.

I've long since understood that my job is to basically coddle these kids, pretend to be charmed by their 'adorable hijinks', and try to make them feel like the bare minimum is good enough, while pushing them to do a tiny bit better... but maybe I should be doing the 'go through the textbook and smack anyone who isn't listening' thing that the K teachers do... because there's no way that they'd ever say that such a teaching style isn't benefiting them.

I'm starting to get the impression that in many cases, bringing English to these kids (or at least attempting to) is about as useful as bringing a bicycle to a fish. They don't understand why they have to pass an English test, because why is it important? Why should they learn English if they're only ever going to be a housewife that never leaves Korea?

And why am I profiting from some dumb president's attempt to put English in every classroom across the nation-- including in places that have zero use for it? What does that make me???

Rant over.

[tenchu77491]

-Taking all of her earned stickers was rough

-Now that you took it you can't give them back because the kids will see it as a victory on their part

-These kids owned you at your own game

I am sure you have more victories than the kids... so just admit to your one loss and change your game up and start winning again.

Go into your class and scrap all of the stickers. Start up something 'new'. Convert old stickers into something else... at least you can give the girl her share while not losing face in front of the kids.

Don't be too quick to judge where these kids will go with their lives. You really have no idea and so do they.. they are just kids. Did you have any idea where you would end up from the moment you were in middle school? I sure as hell didn't, and I sure as hell didn't study or pay attention in school until near the end.

The best thing you can do is give the kids the ability to learn for those that want it. As for the others, if they don't care, then it's their fault. Just do your best and bring the English to those that are willing to take it.

[ESL Milk "Everyday]

No offense, but there's no way that punishment was too rough.

If you had taken the time to set up an entire class activity that required heaps of prep time (of which I have very little as it is) and everyone admitted they enjoyed it, only to see that your students had stolen from you in order to get themselves a stupid cookie... I think you'd be pretty disgusted too.

Yes, I know they're kids, but seriously-- if my kid did that, I would take away more than just stickers.

I've never been hard on these kids on ANYTHING in the past, but stealing, no matter what it is, is selfish and morally wrong... and if you think I was too harsh, I'm not sure what sort of punishment you would recommend.

[tenchu77491]

I do sticker stuff too, and yes I have had kids steal from me.. but not in the way your girl did. I give 2 stickers for a perfect test score and 1 sticker for homework. I had a girl try to take 2 for a homework.

Punishment? I have a ton of punishments. They can range from making kids stand with their hands up, to crab walking the entire school floor in front of the whole public school hall, or calling their parents. I find the parent call is most effective.

I don't go nuts over stealing, but a boy punched a girl in the face and I threw him out of the class and called his mom. Also, I have been harsh on him ever since. He has came a long way since then.

I know there are punishments for crimes, but grabbing all of the girls stickers (some she may have earned legit, and some not so) is a bit harsh. Her incentive to do what ever earns stickers has been destroyed. In doing that, the other kids probably lost respect to the whole process.

Instead I have positive stickers and a minus sticker (white ones). You could have given her like 10 minus stickers. When the kids ask why, you can say that is the rule for stealing. Minus 5 for cheating, 10 for stealing etc. At least the kids still have the 'safety' of their stickers. You excluded a student from your whole game because she screwed up once.

[polonius]

I have to agree that taking away the stickers was not the appropriate course of action.

The way your students interperate the stickers are as currency. They do their work, they get paid. You paid them for a certain amount of work. As a punishment you have taken back money that they earned. If you want to keep them working for you, and have this currency structure in place, you have to respect how they perceive it as well. The punishment didn't fit the crime, especially if this was a first offense. I would have rather said, for that offense, you lose your stamp priviledges for so many days.

The other students will respect that, she will understand what she did was wrong, and then you can move on as business as usual. What she did was wrong, I am not saying that she shouldn't be punished for it. I certainly wouldn't make her pay out as a fine what she tried to steal. What you did was say that it is ok for you to steal from her as a punishment, and what they are saying to you is that they will no longer work for you because you turned around and did the exact thing that you were claiming to be wrong.

Teachers need to find the currency that students deal with, be it stamps, praise, free time, activities, ect... We also need to make sure that the rules apply to us as well as them, otherwise we lose them.

[tenchu77491]

^Yep, that's a good way to put it too.

[Leslie Cheswyck]

In some countries a kid loses a hand for stealing.

Let's keep things in perspective here.

[Goku]

OP you make some truly interesting points.

Stickers = bad. Most teachers can recant some terrible drama like one you just experienced with stickers. Stealing, cheating, whinning, and ultimately anarchy.

About your students, sounds like one of the typical scenarios we read about in Classroom management. Kids have pegged you unfair and won't listen to you. Their sense of justice isn't on par or equal to yours (But I'm sure we all agree with you, I would slap that kid's ass too if this were the 1950's)

But this can be rooted to stickers again. Some teaching theorists say if a teacher tries to motivatie students with extrinsic rewards such as candy or stickers it will actually become demotivational factors as it can affect intrinsic motivation to learn english (ie. curiosity, pursuit of knowledge) . It's the same thing said in management courses about rewarding employees with money instead of telling them, "you're important to the company".

Of course, this is all assuming our students were decent. Seems like candy is the ONLY thing that will motivate them. I feel like I'm teaching a pack of ravenous dogs sometimes. I always have to prove myself to be the Alpha, quell the other "dominate" dogs, and try to control their seemingly wild behavior.

As for what happens to the kids. Well yea. Suffice it to say, try not to peg them like that just yet. It's dangerous to label kids failures because that will affect your teaching.

Good luck

[Juregen]

Throw the damn stickers out please.
It doesn't do anyone any good.
Candy does exactly the same thing. Kids in Korea are extremely competitive in any circumstances, the smallest game becomes a cut throat challenge.

If you want your kids to learn, you have to make it clear to those kids it is their responsibility to learn.



Focusing on cooperative games might be a better thing to do.

[E_athlete]

so let me get this straight...you can persuade middle school children to do what you want if you offer them......candy!?

Are these kids poor or easily manipulated? Kids in middle school as I recall were making out to kurt cobain music and having sex during recess.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

I have to ask why is it that you're giving them stickers? For doing what they're supposed to? This is never a very wise long-term strategy. It teaches the brighter kids that the only reward for learning is something concrete and immediate, and it teaches the ones who lack the ability to keep up that there is no reward for learning.

I love to use treats, but it's always for something random that anyone who participates can win, or for a group where the weaker students have a chance of winning, too.

[buddie3232]

I disagree with some on the use of stickers or candy. I teach public elementary
school. My goal is getting the kids to talk. Candy works wonders.

It just motivates the kids and gets them excited.

[PRagic]

One underlying problem here was summed up in the student's comment, "'We don't need to study English. You can't help us." They couldn't be further from the truth, and this is something that should be commuicated to all students and parents by the administration before the kids even step foot in an ESL classroom, especially at schools in rural or economically challenged areas.

Koreans still have a comparatively isolated world view. They think they're the only ones in the world subjected to second (or third, in some cases) language aquisition. They're not.

Point out the examples of schools in any number of European countries, in Canada, and more recently even in the US, where extended second language training is compulsory. Point out that Korea spends the most on English education in the OECD, but that its students consistently score in the lowest percentiles. Those statistics were established before every school was getting a native speaker instructor.

Then point out that Korean universities are encorporating more English taught core courses into their curricula. Again, this was a trend established at universities around the world before it caught on here. Then take it one step further; English is the language of international business. Korean efforts to solicit more inward FDI are in part tied to the communicative ability of its skilled labour force. As FDI in the future will increasinglyl target small to medium sized firms and firms in the service industries, the argument that 'only those people doing big business with big companies need English' just doesn't cut it anymore. Several studies have also shown the positive impact English language advertising and marketing campaigns have on corporate and country images globally.

Personally, we all know it would be great if all Korean schools could offer two, three, or four languages for students to choose from and concentrate on for the duration of their studies, even up to and including university. Given the small number of qualified Korean teachers of foreign languages now, however, that simply isn't feasible. So English it is. And if the students (and parents and Korean faculty) continue on with the chip on their shoulder, tell them that at least the second language they need to graduate from university is one that they've been given the opportunity to study since elementary school. STILL, however, we have seen the abismal reports about fluency levels from university ESL teachers nation-wide. And how many of us had to have a semester or two (or more) of foreign language to graduate? And how many years did you study that language before you had to take it at the university level?

They don't need English? Send that kid to the back of the line. He/She will be relegated to the lowest tier universities and will be hard pressed to contribute to any internationally competive organization, public or private. The OP does express that the kids aren't rich and that they might not be getting the same advantages that the rich kids are getting. However, income and status do not have to dictate one's world view and the attached values and beliefs that can shape one's future. That may have been the case here before, but the very fact that the school in the sticks now has a native speaker ESL teacher reflects a change in that mindset. A wasted opportunity, whatever the age, is a wasted opportunity.

End rant.

[oldfatfarang]

[nicam]

Hmmm, I never considered the futility of our jobs in respect to socioeconomic boundaries of our students. That's just the icing on the cake.

Korea will never learn English as long as Korean English teachers don't speak English, and/or encourage their students to do so in class. Since regulation requires NETs have a Korean co-teacher spewing more unnecessary Korean in every class our jobs are even more pointless. Middle school kids are past the critical period on top of that.

You can't acquire a second language through dictation and memorization in L1. A nation cannot succeed at L2 acquisition when all of its L2 teachers do not actually speak the language they are teaching.

What are we? Band aids for bullet wounds. A way for Korea to save face by creating the illusion that they are remedying the country's inability to learn English. To really solve the problem would require real change, and a complete overhaul of the system, not to mention an admission of failure and a creation of standards that would leave nearly every Korean English teacher in the dust.

Now add the socioeconomic issues to this equation and you get one big fat WTF?