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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: 'Atheists for Jesus' - why? |
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I'm sure we've all heard the following assertion...... "I don't believe in the claims of Christianity, but I respect Jesus. He was a good man, ahead of his time, with a message of peace and love" from nonbelievers. Hey, I might even have said the insipid words myself on occasion. Dawkins wore an atheists for Jesus t-shirt, also. Load of baloney, however.
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Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats.
Christians like to attribute "do unto others....." to the moral creativity of Jesus. Unfortunately for them, however, we encounter the identical words in Leviticus 19:18 ("you shall love your neighbor as yourself").
Jesus distinguished himself not by the content of his moral code, but by his conception of himself and his divinely-appointed mission.
Does he, as a moral preacher, deserve the enormous respect that he seems to elicit even from disbelievers?
Few scholars care to place Jesus on the same level as such intellectual giants as Plato and Aristotle. Whether one agrees with these philosophers or not, they at least argue for their claims. Jesus, on the other hand, issues proclamations backed by the threat of force. Since Jesus does not argue for his doctrines, they are, philosophically, nothing more than arbitrary assertions.
If the threat of force, or eternal damnation, succeeds in breaking a man's spirit - if it robs him of emotional strength and intellectual independence - he will indeed become meek and humble. Perhaps this is what Jesus was aiming for.
We are not to judge others, which is merely another facet of suspending one's critical faculties. The man who is incapable of passing independent value judgements will be the least critical.
(George Smith, Atheism: the Case Against God) |
This book is the best refutation of religion, by the way - better than Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris. |
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warren pease
Joined: 12 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you trying to start a topic of conversation or sell a book? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| warren pease wrote: |
| Are you trying to start a topic of conversation or sell a book? |
What's the point in asking that? Does it matter? |
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E_athlete
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
Location: Korea sparkling
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| faith is the greatest jedi mind trick of the last 2000 yrs |
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warren pease
Joined: 12 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| warren pease wrote: |
| Are you trying to start a topic of conversation or sell a book? |
What's the point in asking that? Does it matter? |
Just trying to understand what you expected from this thread. I mean, if you were just hoping to have another long winded, pointless thread with all of the Dave's drudgery expounding on things they can't very well comprehend, let alone articulate, then good luck to you. However, if your intent was to compare this book against other books, then I was going to check back in and maybe even throw in my thoughts. My thinking being that any idiot can throw in his two cents on a topic but if a person actually took the time to read books on the topic then that person might, just might, have something interesting to say.
Does it matter? No, of course not. Nothing matters. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| warren pease wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| warren pease wrote: |
| Are you trying to start a topic of conversation or sell a book? |
What's the point in asking that? Does it matter? |
Just trying to understand what you expected from this thread. I mean, if you were just hoping to have another long winded, pointless thread with all of the Dave's drudgery expounding on things they can't very well comprehend, let alone articulate, then good luck to you. However, if your intent was to compare this book against other books, then I was going to check back in and maybe even throw in my thoughts. My thinking being that any idiot can throw in his two cents on a topic but if a person actually took the time to read books on the topic then that person might, just might, have something interesting to say. |
By all means, check out George Smith's amazing book and tell me what you think. Actually, it's available online to print as a pdf.
And if you've some view on the part quoted in my OP regarding Jesus and the broader topic of 'atheists for Jesus' - rendered utterly absurd in my view - then tell us that too! |
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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: 'Atheists for Jesus' - why? |
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�You have heard the law that says, �Love your neighbor� and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else?"
Politeness and acting ethically are reciprocal arrangements. If somebody in Korean society doesn't give you the respect you feel you're due, then you're less likely to extend any courtesies towards them. Behaving in this way seems kind of phony to me.
Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.
Hardly a hateful doctrine and a meeting point for people with different belief systems. Realistically, you cannot convince a significant proportion of believers through rational argument to change their perspectives as their adherence to religion is emotional and programmed into their sense of identity.
So, why not try to convince them that tolerance is inline with their party doctrine? |
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warren pease
Joined: 12 May 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| warren pease wrote: |
"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
You believe in fairies too??!!  |
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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| warren pease wrote: |
| Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. |
From what I remember of studying the matter 16 odd years ago, there were different sources for each of the books. The church decided which accounts would go into the Bible according to its own interests. If I remember correctly, it is Lukes/Pauls account which introduces a lot of the Messianic overtones.
If you take Jesus sayings out of the context we are familiar with them today then it has a lot in common with some of the metaphysical Eastern traditions.
I am the light that is over all, I am the universe; the universe has gone out of me, and the universe has returned to me again. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift up the stone and you will find me there.
Having said that, if you take one system down to its most abstract then you can find correlations with practically any other system. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| warren pease wrote: |
"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
Smith also says:
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| In Luke 19:27 appear the words "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me" (which is generally omitted when the story is read). |
There are several Jesus quotes that sound very indecent, but I haven't the patience to quote the Bible, because it will be handwaved away as metaphor, allegory, or "what Jesus REALLY meant was........"
Unless you're preaching to the choir, however, you're wasting your breath (if anyone wishes to discuss Jesus along those lines) |
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tfunk
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Location: Dublin, Ireland
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Smith also says:
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| In Luke 19:27 appear the words "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me" (which is generally omitted when the story is read). |
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IMHO, Luke was biased.
http://www.anatheist.net/articles/christianity/eyewitness-to-jesus-the-gospel-authors/
Quoting a commentator on the previous link:
"Matthew and Luke draw heavily from Mark and from a some other source to the point that they overlap quite a bit. What makes them different is the ways in which they intentionally changed Mark to suit their own literary or theological needs.". |
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bcbenjammin
Joined: 07 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| warren pease wrote: |
"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
Smith also says:
| Quote: |
| In Luke 19:27 appear the words "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me" (which is generally omitted when the story is read). |
There are several Jesus quotes that sound very indecent, but I haven't the patience to quote the Bible, because it will be handwaved away as metaphor, allegory, or "what Jesus REALLY meant was........"
Unless you're preaching to the choir, however, you're wasting your breath (if anyone wishes to discuss Jesus along those lines) |
yeahhh, i think you should do some more reading on your own before professing that a person's book is "amazing" as this is a bit of fox news action on the bible. yes, jesus said this, but if you read the context in which it was said, he was telling a story about a king, and it was the character of the king who said this...but i'm sure you'll just dismiss this comment as me calling it a metaphor or allegory |
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warren pease
Joined: 12 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| bcbenjammin wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| warren pease wrote: |
"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
Smith also says:
| Quote: |
| In Luke 19:27 appear the words "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me" (which is generally omitted when the story is read). |
There are several Jesus quotes that sound very indecent, but I haven't the patience to quote the Bible, because it will be handwaved away as metaphor, allegory, or "what Jesus REALLY meant was........"
Unless you're preaching to the choir, however, you're wasting your breath (if anyone wishes to discuss Jesus along those lines) |
yeahhh, i think you should do some more reading on your own before professing that a person's book is "amazing" as this is a bit of fox news action on the bible. yes, jesus said this, but if you read the context in which it was said, he was telling a story about a king, and it was the character of the king who said this...but i'm sure you'll just dismiss this comment as me calling it a metaphor or allegory |
spot on. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2019;&version=31; |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| bcbenjammin wrote: |
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| warren pease wrote: |
"Jesus was a Jew and he concieved of himself as the Jewish messiah. He issues commands, or rules, backed by the brute sanctions of heaven and hell. It is a plain matter of promises and threats."
Ok, i'm going to read the book as soon as I have some free time. I do have issue with the quote above, however. While I haven't read the entire New Testament, I do not recall a whole lot of threats. Actually, I don't even think Jesus mentions "Hell" specifically, or maybe even indirectly. Also, I am fairy certain that he never calls himself the Messiah. He only vaguely, and i believe once or twice, refers to Himself as the son of God, but from what I understand his saying that could have easily been translated "a son of God." And brute sanctions? I'm not sure in what light the author read the New Testament but the image of Jesus as a tyrannical self aggrandizing fear monger is a far cry from my recollection.
I am going to presume that this book will not be nearly as rational or compelling as Dawkin's.
I could be wrong, I suppose. These are just some preliminary thoughts. I look forward to the book and hope that this thread can continue in an intelligent, respectful manner. |
Smith also says:
| Quote: |
| In Luke 19:27 appear the words "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me" (which is generally omitted when the story is read). |
There are several Jesus quotes that sound very indecent, but I haven't the patience to quote the Bible, because it will be handwaved away as metaphor, allegory, or "what Jesus REALLY meant was........"
Unless you're preaching to the choir, however, you're wasting your breath (if anyone wishes to discuss Jesus along those lines) |
yeahhh, i think you should do some more reading on your own before professing that a person's book is "amazing" as this is a bit of fox news action on the bible. |
And it doesn't concern you that you, yourself, ought to do a bit of reading - the book in question perhaps, which you describe as "a bit of fox news action on the bible" - without ever having read it?
What a scholar  |
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