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Most US voters don't support Israel
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RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:27 am Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Stalinist Russia then?

Russia was the biggest republic in the USSR and Stalin was the leader, but men and women from all over the USSR saved the asses of Jewish people in Europe and probably elsewhere.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

And here you guys are singing the praises of Big Joe Stalin? Disgraceful

I'm not a fan of Stalin or any other socialist. I don't even like most Democrats or Republicans because both parties are way too socialist for me, but the fact still remains that Israel wouldn't exist and a whole lot its citizens, perhaps all of the Jewish citizens, wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for the bravery, determination, and sacrifice of the soldiers of the U.S.S.R.

Jews in concentration camps prayed for G_d to save them. Who knows what G_d was doing, but millions of Jews died waiting on him to answer their prayers. Meanwhile, socialists from the east and Christians from the west crushed Hitler's military and saved Jewish ass, whether you appreciate it or not. The media here in America likes to portray the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising as the most crucial battle on the Eastern Front, but the reality is that the Red Army killed 8 out of every 9 German soldiers who died in WWII in the biggest battles in the history of mankind as well as countless smaller battles.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

RJjr wrote:

And for all of the Hell Christians have put Jews through over the centuries, Israel owes its existance to Christians in the USA, the UK, and elsewhere. Not just these guys http://mazh.com/pics/FR-Normandy-Colleville%20Cem.jpg but also Christians who have supported Israel over the decades.

That's precisely what they should be doing.

No. Giving hard-earned money to foreign Jews who didn't do anything to earn the money (sounds eerily similar to socialism) has not only helped to ruin our economy, but it also motivated the 9/11 highjackers to murder Americans.

It's especially disgraceful for Arab-American Christians to have to see their tax dollars go to Israel after the way Israeli Jews have maltreated Arab Christians all these years.

Even the Germans, to this day, pay reparation for the murder of Jews and the theft of their property. Arabs have been murdered and their property seized in a similar manner to how the Nazis stole from European Jews, but they're not as bad about whining and holding their hand out for money as Israel is.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

So why do modern-day socialists love the Palestinians so much? Oh yeah, I forgot. The first thing you do when you're a peace-loving hippy is support mass-murdering Islamic fascists.

The American people elected the socialist Obama. 78% of American Jews voted for him. Do 78% of Jews support the Palestinians?

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:25 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

bacasper wrote:

It doesn't matter if it was a scientific sample representative of the general population of US voters???

It matters, but it doesn't assure that the results are correct. I'm also in no way certain this particular poll was a properly representative scientific sample (though I'm not saying it's not either, I didn't ee that data detailed in the article you posted).

Yes, I agree that we do not know the specifics of this particular poll. The article did not even give confidence intervals, but our discussion moved onto scientific polls which at least some of us know do have validity.

Quote:

bacasper wrote:

But the survey you, Sergio, did of one (yourself) IS representative of the general population?

Show me where in this thread I said anything about my own opinion on what the American population's overall support for Palestine or Israel is. Alternatively, stop straw manning me; making up a claim for me then arguing against that claim is ridiculous.

Sorry, I didn't know your name also was Sergio. I was asking only Signore Stefanuto.

Quote:

bacasper wrote:

Are polls just a plot then to fool the readers?

You are reacting remarkably strongly to the assertion that not all polls mesh with reality. Perhaps you should calm down and reevaluate exactly what I said, namely that an individual poll -- particularly an individual political opinion poll -- is not necessarily accurate.

Ibid.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:45 am Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Quote:

bacasper wrote:

But the survey you, Sergio, did of one (yourself) IS representative of the general population?

Sorry, I didn't know your name also was Sergio. I was asking only Signore Stefanuto.

I had actually thought that since you said it after a quotation from me, you had meant "you and Sergio" and just said it clumsily.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:24 am Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Bucheon Bum wrote:

yes, it is obvious mr. sergio didn't take even stats 101

And it's equally obvious that Bucheon Bum didn't even take Argument and Logic 101 if he is happy to accept a blatant nonsequitur.

? Well it is true. You did nothing to illustrate you are familiar with statistics and samples.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Bucheon Bum wrote:

And don't forget the fact that the USSR was the second country to recognize Israel.

Well, bully for Stalin.

Russia also started the Six Day War (with a lie) and supported Yasser Arafat's terrorist war against Israel. Arafat and Mahmood Abbas and thousands of terrorists were trained by the KGB in guerilla warfare, espionage and demolition. Arafat was a Soviet puppet.

What do you think about your heroes, the Soviet Union, now?

Ever read Death by Government? Communism killed 200 million of its own citizens

And here you guys are singing the praises of Big Joe Stalin? Disgraceful

Umm who said I supported the USSR? I am merely pointing out the humor in the fact you bash the USSR and socialism and yet those two things are a big component of Israel's existence. Just shows you how silly it is to completely lambaste an ideology/country/etc.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

bucheon bum wrote:

Or that Israel's economic policy was socialist up until the 90s.

So why do modern-day socialists love the Palestinians so much? Oh yeah, I forgot. The first thing you do when you're a peace-loving hippy is support mass-murdering Islamic fascists.

What? Are you trying to be as nonsensical as possible here?

Thank you for helping perpetuate the image of ideologues of having rudimentary thinking.

edit: added "for" to my last sentence.

Last edited by bucheon bum on Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:46 am Post subject:

Quote:

And don't forget the fact that the USSR was the second country to recognize Israel.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the war that followed the creation of Israel in 1948, the Israelis were pretty much saved by an Eastern-bloc arms shipment.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:49 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

And don't forget the fact that the USSR was the second country to recognize Israel.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the war that followed the creation of Israel in 1948, the Israelis were pretty much saved by an Eastern-bloc arms shipment.

Czechoslovakia to be exact.

Although I am not sure "saved" would be the right word. I think that is somewhat of a myth. The arab forces were so poorly armed and trained that Israeli forces were superior regardless of that shipment. But yes, I think it did help bring hostilities to an end.

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject:

Examining every fallacy in the comments above would take me too long. I will, however, briefly discuss three fundamental flaws.

RJjr wrote:

Russia was the biggest republic in the USSR and Stalin was the leader, but men and women from all over the USSR saved the asses of Jewish people in Europe and probably elsewhere.

RJjr wrote:

The American people elected the socialist Obama. 78% of American Jews voted for him. Do 78% of Jews support the Palestinians?

bucheon bum wrote:

I am merely pointing out the humor in the fact you bash the USSR and socialism and yet those two things are a big component of Israel's existence

On the other hand wrote:

Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the war that followed the creation of Israel in 1948, the Israelis were pretty much saved by an Eastern-bloc arms shipment.

Above, we have Obama the socialist, the USSR the socialists and the Eastern-bloc the socialists.

Rather broad.

Let me explain what I meant. And let us all accept the view that Israel is greatly indebted to "Socialism", albeit including the mass-murdering Soviets as "socialists". Firstly, I should have said "the Western left" rather than socialism, because then perhaps the "socialist" Soviet Union wouldn't have distorted the discussion.

The Western Left succeeded in reframing the Vietnam War from what it actually was - a communist assault on the South - to a struggle for national liberation. Ho Chi Min's chief strategist told Arafat and the Arabs that they ought to do similar (turning an explicitly mass-murdering war of terror into a struggle for human rights). The leftists then, of course, line the streets with their big posters. Crucially also, the aggressors - turned into the victims - not only face the Israelis as enemies, but world capitalist imperialism.

It's quite pathetic, really.

RJjr wrote:

No. Giving hard-earned money to foreign Jews who didn't do anything to earn the money (sounds eerily similar to socialism) has not only (1) helped to ruin our economy, but it also (2) motivated the 9/11 highjackers to murder Americans.

There are two fallacies above which I have bolded and numbered.

(1) Israel, obviously, has recieved a massive amount of funding from the US, but it's very small in comparison to the US's overall turnover. The ruin of the US economy is due to horrendous banking practises; nothing at all to do with Israeli funding

(2) The Americans' support for Israel motivated 19 Saudis to hijack planes, kill themselves and commit mass-murder (intended to kill 20,000)? Giant nonsequitur there. I haven't the patience to discuss 9/11, but the most one can say about America's support for Israel is that it had minimal influence.

Bacasper wrote:

Are polls just a plot then to fool the readers? You are definitely neither a scientist, mathematician, nor statistician. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

No, but I refuse to accept a conclusion that doesn't follow from the evidence cited. Whether "most Americans don't support Israel" or whether they do remains a completely open question. Polls are suggestive only. And in my view, this particular poll is very minimally suggestive.

RJjr

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Turning on a Lamp

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:39 pm Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

The Western Left succeeded in reframing the Vietnam War from what it actually was - a communist assault on the South - to a struggle for national liberation.

Assault on the South? The Viet Cong were mostly South Vietnamese and had widespread support throughout South Vietnam. Why do you think we burned down South Vietnamese villages and killed South Vietnamese civilians? Why do you think we lost the war?

This was an assault on South Vietnamese civilians in a South Vietnamese village done by our soldiers, not the NVA or VC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

(1) Israel, obviously, has recieved a massive amount of funding from the US, but it's very small in comparison to the US's overall turnover. The ruin of the US economy is due to horrendous banking practises; nothing at all to do with Israeli funding.

Yeah, $3,000,000,000.00 a year for a foreign country the population of Maryland is "nothing." Osama bin Laden and Mohamed Atta constantly complained about our support for Israel and Ziad Jarrah heard American bombs dropped by Israeli pilots exploding in his country throughout his childhood.

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

The ruin of the US economy is due to horrendous banking practises

Greenspan and Bernanke are the most at fault. What religion are they? Wink

Sergio Stefanuto

Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:33 am Post subject:

RJjr wrote:

Yeah, $3,000,000,000.00 a year for a foreign country the population of Maryland is "nothing."

$3,000,000,000.00 per year 0.02% of US GDP and 0.1% of its federal budget (its present one at least)

RJjr wrote:

Osama bin Laden and Mohamed Atta constantly complained about our support for Israel and Ziad Jarrah heard American bombs dropped by Israeli pilots exploding in his country throughout his childhood.

If I wanted to read excuses for mass-murdering theocratic fascists, I'd read either the Guardian, Socialist Worker or Islam Q&A

RJjr wrote:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

The ruin of the US economy is due to horrendous banking practises

Greenspan and Bernanke are the most at fault. What religion are they? Wink

Have you considered bowing to Mecca five times per day there, bro? Shocked

ChopChaeJoe

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:38 am Post subject:

It's no surpise to me. Israel has become a gigatic bully ad their occupatio is certaily ihumae, if not a abomiation. I say we step dow that $3billion a year to zero. The israelis have ukes, they can take care of themselves. Alteratively, the US could act like a paret watchig two childre fightig over a toy, ad take it away. In this case, a couple of cobalt-60s over Gaza and the west bank. Kidding about that. But Israel's behavior in the last few years has been pretty bad. The palestiias are no better, but who has the higher body count? As for the poll, 800 sounds like a smallish sample size, but 20 points would still be much higher than the margin of error, without bothering to churn out the calculations.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:58 am Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

0.1% of its federal budget (its present one at least)

Probably about 0.1% too much at this point, IMO. When are they planning to wean themselves off of Uncle Sam's (nowadays dry) nipple? Apparently never, according to AIPACs mission statement.

Could someone tell me why we (Americans) are obligated to Israel? I'm not against an alliance by any means, but the relationship between our two nations has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime.

ChopChaeJoe

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:54 am Post subject:

shouldn't you mea ridiculous to the absurd? I agree, btw.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:13 am Post subject:

ChopChaeJoe wrote:

shouldn't you mea ridiculous to the absurd? I agree, btw.

I always heard the expression the way I wrote it, but that could be because I grew up around people who liked to mangle the language. My posting history should provide ample documentary evidence to back that up.

bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:38 am Post subject:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Bacasper wrote:

Are polls just a plot then to fool the readers? You are definitely neither a scientist, mathematician, nor statistician. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

You know thread titles are quite limited in length.

Had I more room and wanted to be perfectly clear, I would have written, and you would not have been able to argue with:

Quote:

According to this poll, within a confidence interval of x, a majority of US voters don't support Israel.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject:

bacasper wrote:

Sergio Stefanuto wrote:

Bacasper wrote:

Are polls just a plot then to fool the readers? You are definitely neither a scientist, mathematician, nor statistician. Are you a conspiracy theorist?

You know thread titles are quite limited in length.

Had I more room and wanted to be perfectly clear, I would have written, and you would not have been able to argue with:

Quote:

According to this poll, within a confidence interval of x, a majority of US voters don't support Israel.

Sure we could argue with that simply by pointing out that 800 people are neither a majority of U.S voters nor an accurate representation of them.

The only way you could have written it so people couldn't disagree is that "According to this poll a majority of 800 people don't support Israel."

And that is it.

But the point was that polls are known to be unreliable. For example look at the exit polls of the 2004 election. This was a much more representative sampling as the people being polled were actual voters and there was a much larger pool to pick from.

These polls suggested John Kerry would win...and we all know how that turned out.

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