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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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 Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: Hagwon Tax |
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| I was thinking about Korean education. It seems people are unsatisfied with the public education. I think that hagwon tuition should be taxed with the proceeds going to public education. Maybe the public education system could then afford to improve language and all education to a level that parents would feel they don't need academies. Plus the academies would be more expensive so less people would want to pay. I'm thinking 30% or higher. It would crash the hagwon business and improve public education merely at the expense of the hagwon boss. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Your idea is to discourage people from studying and financially punish those who do study more than others?
Plus under your plan, carried to it's logical conclusion of a crashed hogwan business means that few to no hogwans will exist in the end and the economic subsidy they provided would cease to be. It would leave the public system as it was found and limited the options of others to improve upon themselves.
Not to mention that public education in Korea is primarily paid for by the family anyway, and not primarily through local taxes as is common in some other countries. |
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phaedrus
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Location: I'm comin' to get ya.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I didn't think of that. OOOPS!!!
I just sense that Japan has JET and there must be something wrong with Korea in comparison. How can the public education system in Korea be improved?
A serious complaint with Korean parents is that public education doesn't meet their needs and they must send their kids to hagwons. How can this be fixed?
Any genius answers to a more serious issue? |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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It probably isn't a problem with the public education system. It's a problem with the thought process of Korean parents... they seem to think that little Min-Soo should get only 100% on every single assignment or test... and that if there's a single 99%, it means she must spend another hour a day at a school in one form or another.
I've had issues at my hagwan because I insist on grading on a bell curve. I want 80% to be my average score with only the best students getting above 90% and the worst students getting 60%. My boss's daughter cries for 20 minutes every time I give her a 90% and alot of my other students will either cry or pout if they don't receive a perfect score. |
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ulsanchris
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: take a wild guess
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| One idea is for the government to spend more money on education. I hear one of the complaints is that the class sizes are too big. Build more schools, lower class sizes and fire all the old and ineffective teachers. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ulsanchris wrote: |
| fire all the old and ineffective teachers. |
Just curious how this solves the problem, as the new and ineffective teachers will just fill their shoes...not that there is enough of them to fill all the vacancies that would be created by firing the old and ineffective teachers.
A better plan would be manatory teacher training that focuses on change in the way education is handled in this country. Teachers do what they do because the government tells them to do it. Also because the gov't makes stupid things like the KSAT test and so teachers teach impractical and useless English so kids can ace that test.
The problem doesn't lie with the teachers, it lies within the system itself. If the system can change, then teachers will adapt to the changes, as they always have. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
| I insist on grading on a bell curve. |
That is most unfortunate.
Personally, I grade based on how well they understand and can use what I have taught rather than "well, you can use it perfectly, but the student over there can use it in a more creative fashion, so you now get a lower mark." I do it that way because it's substantially less retarded than using a bell curve. |
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dominic
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:50 pm Post subject: ok |
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| the hogwan business is going to crash anyways, it's already starting to happen with kids pulling out of schools because the parents cant get any more money from bank loans, family debt is huge here and only getting bigger. Sorry lifers but i think you guys are crazy and very unrealistic when you say you are staying in korea to teach for the rest of your working days as teachers, the economy isnt good here and probably going to get worse before it gets better and hogwans will be the first to go bankrupt. I go back to Canada in 4 months and it's gonna feel like 4 years, since we arent treated very well at my school, not civil at all, terrible work environment, and i know what u guys are saying, just leave, and i want to badly, but i lose so much money if i do, and i cant handle that i dont think, why should my boss get out of paying me the airfare and bonus, bosses are very tricky and dishonest here, even when they have teachers like me working for them...who try their best to teach the students and works hard. Hogwan owners here are very ungratful most of the time. Waiting for ur response Gord... |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: ok |
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| dominic wrote: |
| Waiting for ur response Gord... |
What do you want me to say? It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools? |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| ryleeys wrote: |
| I insist on grading on a bell curve. |
That is most unfortunate.
Personally, I grade based on how well they understand and can use what I have taught rather than "well, you can use it perfectly, but the student over there can use it in a more creative fashion, so you now get a lower mark." I do it that way because it's substantially less retarded than using a bell curve. |
Hahaha... you really are quite the ass, aren't you?
I use the bell curve because if every student is taught that they get 100% on every test, they stop feeling they have to try harder. And at the age level I teach, there is no "creative usage". They're young, so at this point it's just a question of getting them to remember some vocabulary and a little grammar. And if I have a student construct their own sentence? That is definately filtered into how I grade them. I'm just tired of seeing teachers adjust the tests to make them so easy that the students all get 100% just so they don't have to deal with crying students. |
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dominic
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: because |
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| I know u have something to say...u have something to say all the time. and yes it's always the tools fault, in my case it's the sticks' fault since i played hockey for a long time...always blame the stick |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
| Hahaha... you really are quite the ass, aren't you? |
No, just tactless and overly blunt.
| Quote: |
| I use the bell curve because if every student is taught that they get 100% on every test, they stop feeling they have to try harder. And at the age level I teach, there is no "creative usage". They're young, so at this point it's just a question of getting them to remember some vocabulary and a little grammar. And if I have a student construct their own sentence? That is definately filtered into how I grade them. I'm just tired of seeing teachers adjust the tests to make them so easy that the students all get 100% just so they don't have to deal with crying students. |
I'm sorry, do you have a link that supports your declaration that a student who gets 100% on every test will stop feeling they have to try harder? I ask because the bell curve was generally used historically to discourage lower level students from continuing their education in the more expensive higher studies as they would be continually receiving failing marks even if they knew what was being taught, but just not as fluently as other students. It was used very effectively during the middle of the 20th century in the U.S. as part of the "get the darkies out of our white schools" by many districts.
The point I'm making is that if 100% of your students use what you've taught them perfectly, you're going to punish some simply because they weren't as creative.
I also disagree with the idea that a test should be so easy that a person could not even have attended the class and still get perfect. But I disagree with the idea of punishing someone who has learned what you taught them, and that is what a bell curve can do. |
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ryleeys
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I was taught that people are never equal in this sense... if they all learn the material, but there is some way to distinguish that one knows it better, then giving the better student 100% and the student that did good, but not as good an 85% is the same as rewarding the better student. If you do better, it sucks to get the same grade as someone else because the scale only goes so high.
Couldn't provide a link about benefits of the bell curve, am far too lazy to go look it up. But as far as students receiving 100% and then not trying as hard, I believe the idea is called "complacency" |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: because |
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| dominic wrote: |
| I know u have something to say...u have something to say all the time. and yes it's always the tools fault, in my case it's the sticks' fault since i played hockey for a long time...always blame the stick |
Take me for example. I adapt and stand up for myself without being demanding or arrogant.
Two examples:
First: I'd been in Korea for about 3 weeks when the September 11th hijackings happened. The next day, of course, every student wants to talk about it. That's fine, no problems. Near the end of the day, we're having lunch with the boss and he starts telling us about his military service days. As his English was quite high when he was in the military, he was assigned to be a liason to the U.S. military. He hated that because he came to hate the American military for whatever reason. That's fine, not everyone wants everyone to be their friend.
This lead to a discussion on why the Americans were here and it was because the Americans were here was the reason behind the original NK invasion.
Anyway, something comes up and I have to return to my class and I'm talking to the other foreign teacher about something. The owner's wife didn't really speak English but overheard out conversation. Because she kept hearing the husband's family name over and over, she though I was trash talking them. His name was "Min", and "min" comes up a lot in English with words like "minute" and "minimum" for example. She tell tells her husband about how I'm trashing talking them, and the yelling begins.
This yelling about how I'm trash talking them lead to a rant about how hate hates Americans, again, only this time he stepped it up in how he hates all foreigners and wished that he could run a school without them, and that myself and the other foreigner were only at the school because parents wanted them.
I sat down, wrote a note on the computer citing why I was leaving for the day, and left. Calm, collected. Sure, I could have inflammed the situation but to what point?
A few hours later I get a knock on the door. The boss is there to apologize, talks about the stress of the new school, brought some drinks and food by, and brought the wife in no less. Apologized, and peace was restored in the land.
Or for a more amusing story, last year I was farmed out to a local school for five weeks to help with their summer program. Second to last day there, they call me into the office. They fired me on the spot because I talked on my phone all day.
Short version, when a student misbehaves I whipped out my phone and said I was going to call their mother, then used that to branch off into phone English, where their parents work, and basically use it as a tool to teach them new words while reviewing non-book material.
But on the security cameras, it looked like I was talking on the phone.
I showed him that the call history had no calls during the last several classes, but to no avail.
Then he said he would hire me back if I accepted less money.
I declined. Sorry, bridge is burned. Can't turn back.
He then offered me the same job with the same money.
I declined. Again. Sorry, bridge is burned. Can't turn back. But I phoned up a friend and asked if he wanted a job for a day. He agreed, and I told the school someone else would report in for the last day but it would cost them more than what they were paying me.
They thanked me, then fired me again which amused me greatly.
Moral of the story: If you don't like how you are being treated, do something about it. But don't start screaming like a little child. We're all adults here and can reach agreements when no one is trying to inflame the other. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ryleeys wrote: |
| Well, I was taught that people are never equal in this sense... if they all learn the material, but there is some way to distinguish that one knows it better, then giving the better student 100% and the student that did good, but not as good an 85% is the same as rewarding the better student. |
Why are you choosing to punish someone who has learned what you were teaching them?
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| If you do better, it sucks to get the same grade as someone else because the scale only goes so high. |
Why are you choosing to punish comeone who has learned what you were teaching them? |
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