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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject: How would you explain this to a Korean? |
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Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Of course any American elementary school student would know which one sounded right and which one sounded nonsensical, but how do you explain it to a 'grammar expert' whose computations tell him that the first is right and the second wrong? |
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afsjesse
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Location: Kickin' it in 'Kato town.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I suck at grammar but I'll give it a whirl.
Isn't "with" supposed to be used in reference to something or in conjunction with an action? As in "Let's think with our brains" "Let's drive with the windows down."
So because learning English can't be associated with "using" passion, isn't using "with" wrong?
I think I'm more confused now then when I began... anyways that's my take at it. |
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Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Even grammatically correct sentences made by Korean sound strange.
When was the last time your heard someone say," I'm not happy with my appearance I want to grow taller. Canadians are nowhere near as Nationalistic as Koreans. Have you ever heard a Canadian start a statement with" We Canadians tend to view contracts very seriously" |
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Korussian
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I have no grammar background, but I'll give it a go before my first class:
Passion is not an appendage that you can use, but a hole to be filled. You replace the passion placeholder with the thing you want to be passionate about.
"Let's replace our passion placeholder with English."
"Let's make learning English [into] our passion."
If passion were an appendage, then you could use "with".
"Let's use our passion tool to learn English."
"Let's [learn] English with our passion."
Thus, it's best to think of passion as simply another noun. Perhaps if you show your co-teacher the following example:
Let's make our next car a Ford.
Let's make our next car with a Ford. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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It's one of those cases where it's not entirely clear what they are trying to say.
Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Could also be.. 'Let's start learning English with passion'.
In that case "with" would be acceptable.
I would tell them that their original sentence is not clear.
Do they mean, "our passion" as in our number one priority?
Do they mean "with passion" as in passionately but not necessarily the number one priority?
Either way, their sentence is a confusion between the two possible meanings.
Last edited by some waygug-in on Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I was at the "Total English Education Fare with experience", a couple of weeks ago. |
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toadhjo
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I find it funny when people consider themselves "grammar experts," yet still use their native language as a base for being an expert in a foreign language.
If you really want to be a "grammar expert," you need to function in the target language and be able to explain the grammar rules within it rather than refer back to your base language..
That said, knowing the grammar and being able to communicate are two very different things. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| I was at the "Total English Education Fare with experience", a couple of weeks ago. |
In Changwon? I was there, too. My student one second place in the middle school speech contest. What were you doing there? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| I was there on the Thursday. I don't think there were any events that day. It was pretty quiet. We saw about 50 or 60 kindergartners in the morning and then it was dead all day with experience. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| I was there on the Thursday. I don't think there were any events that day. It was pretty quiet. We saw about 50 or 60 kindergartners in the morning and then it was dead all day with experience. |
I was there during Friday afternoon. By then the convention centre was getting busier (the speech contest was in a room upstairs). Were you doing one of the booths? |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: How would you explain this to a Korean? |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Of course any American elementary school student would know which one sounded right and which one sounded nonsensical, but how do you explain it to a 'grammar expert' whose computations tell him that the first is right and the second wrong? |
It's wrong because you can't make learning English.
You can learn English.
You can make learning English ________.
But you cannot make learning English. The word "with" turns "with our passion" into a postmodifier adverb phrase. In other words, it because additional information that is not necessary to the structure of the sentence.
| Quote: |
| A modifier phrase is a phrase that acts as a modifier; English has adjective phrases and adverb phrases. Neither modifiers nor modifier phrases are usually required by a clause's syntax; they are optional, and help clarify or limit the extent of the meaning of the word or phrase they modify. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier
But the sentence "Let's make learning English" is not a complete sentence.
In the other case, "Let's make learning English our passion," you complete the sentence, because you are using the verb "to make into" instead of "to make" -- you just don't necessarily have to add the "into" for that meaning to be conveyed. But essentially what you are saying is, "Let's make learning English into our passion." "To make" and "to make into" are two different verbs with two different functions.
Does that help at all? |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: How would you explain this to a Korean? |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Of course any American elementary school student would know which one sounded right and which one sounded nonsensical, but how do you explain it to a 'grammar expert' whose computations tell him that the first is right and the second wrong? |
It's wrong because you can't make learning English.
You can learn English.
You can make learning English ________.
But you cannot make learning English. The word "with" turns "with our passion" into a postmodifier adverb phrase. In other words, it because additional information that is not necessary to the structure of the sentence.
| Quote: |
| A modifier phrase is a phrase that acts as a modifier; English has adjective phrases and adverb phrases. Neither modifiers nor modifier phrases are usually required by a clause's syntax; they are optional, and help clarify or limit the extent of the meaning of the word or phrase they modify. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier
But the sentence "Let's make learning English" is not a complete sentence.
In the other case, "Let's make learning English our passion," you complete the sentence, because you are using the verb "to make into" instead of "to make" -- you just don't necessarily have to add the "into" for that meaning to be conveyed. But essentially what you are saying is, "Let's make learning English into our passion." "To make" and "to make into" are two different verbs with two different functions.
Does that help at all? |
Ah - of course - that's the explanation I should have given to my friend.
You win first prize. I'll probably be up in Incheon this summer to visit my friend; consider yourself welcome to a pint on me if you want to meet up. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: How would you explain this to a Korean? |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Of course any American elementary school student would know which one sounded right and which one sounded nonsensical, but how do you explain it to a 'grammar expert' whose computations tell him that the first is right and the second wrong? |
It's wrong because you can't make learning English.
You can learn English.
You can make learning English ________.
But you cannot make learning English. The word "with" turns "with our passion" into a postmodifier adverb phrase. In other words, it because additional information that is not necessary to the structure of the sentence.
| Quote: |
| A modifier phrase is a phrase that acts as a modifier; English has adjective phrases and adverb phrases. Neither modifiers nor modifier phrases are usually required by a clause's syntax; they are optional, and help clarify or limit the extent of the meaning of the word or phrase they modify. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier
But the sentence "Let's make learning English" is not a complete sentence.
In the other case, "Let's make learning English our passion," you complete the sentence, because you are using the verb "to make into" instead of "to make" -- you just don't necessarily have to add the "into" for that meaning to be conveyed. But essentially what you are saying is, "Let's make learning English into our passion." "To make" and "to make into" are two different verbs with two different functions.
Does that help at all? |
Ah - of course - that's the explanation I should have given to my friend.
You win first prize. I'll probably be up in Incheon this summer to visit my friend; consider yourself welcome to a pint on me if you want to meet up. |
Thank you kindly, sir. If you do have some free time when you're up, feel free to give me a holler. This being Incheon, I have a feeling we'd more than likely be down the street from each other at one of the four decent bars in Bupyeong, anyhow. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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How high of a level would a student need to be in order to understand any of that meta language? Wouldn't it simply be easier to explain that the two sentences simply convey two completely different meanings and that the first one simply does not make sense.
The first sentence conveys the feeling that you are going to use your passion to make English. As pointed out earlier, you cannot make English.
You can make it more fun or more interesting but you cannot simply make it.
The second sentence implies that you want to change the study of English from a mere hobby into a passion ( something you love ).
I'm pretty sure even the worst student could grasp that. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: How would you explain this to a Korean? |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
Wrong: 'Let's make learning English with our passion'.
Right: 'Let's make learning English our passion'.
Of course any American elementary school student would know which one sounded right and which one sounded nonsensical, but how do you explain it to a 'grammar expert' whose computations tell him that the first is right and the second wrong? |
It's wrong because you can't make learning English.
You can learn English.
You can make learning English ________.
But you cannot make learning English. The word "with" turns "with our passion" into a postmodifier adverb phrase. In other words, it because additional information that is not necessary to the structure of the sentence.
| Quote: |
| A modifier phrase is a phrase that acts as a modifier; English has adjective phrases and adverb phrases. Neither modifiers nor modifier phrases are usually required by a clause's syntax; they are optional, and help clarify or limit the extent of the meaning of the word or phrase they modify. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier
But the sentence "Let's make learning English" is not a complete sentence.
In the other case, "Let's make learning English our passion," you complete the sentence, because you are using the verb "to make into" instead of "to make" -- you just don't necessarily have to add the "into" for that meaning to be conveyed. But essentially what you are saying is, "Let's make learning English into our passion." "To make" and "to make into" are two different verbs with two different functions.
Does that help at all? |
Ah - of course - that's the explanation I should have given to my friend.
You win first prize. I'll probably be up in Incheon this summer to visit my friend; consider yourself welcome to a pint on me if you want to meet up. |
Thank you kindly, sir. If you do have some free time when you're up, feel free to give me a holler. This being Incheon, I have a feeling we'd more than likely be down the street from each other at one of the four decent bars in Bupyeong, anyhow. |
Will do. |
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