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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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 Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: Healthcare Reform |
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Hate to seem like a George Will fanboy, but why's the man not President?
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http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/06/21/taking_a_razor_to_the_presidents_plan_97094.html
Almost 39 percent of the uninsured are in five states -- Florida, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, all of which are entry points for immigrants. About 21 percent -- 9.7 million -- of the uninsured are not citizens. Up to 14 million are eligible for existing government programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, veterans' benefits, etc. -- but have not enrolled. And 9.1 million have household incomes of at least $75,000 and could purchase insurance. Those last two cohorts are more than half of the 45.7 million.
Insuring the perhaps 20 million persons who are protractedly uninsured because they cannot afford insurance is conceptually simple: Give them money -- (refundable) tax credits or debit cards (which have replaced food stamps) loaded with a particular value. This would produce people who are more empowered than dependent. Unfortunately, advocates of a government option consider that a defect. Which is why the simple idea of the dependency agenda cuts like a razor through the complexities of this debate. |
So, more than half of the uninsured population choose not to be insured. A 5th aren't citezens, so shouldn't be entitled to free cover anyway. What problem is Obama trying to fix, exactly? |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: Healthcare Reform |
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BECAUSE JESUS WOULD SAY TO INSURE EVERYONE WOULDN'T HE?
Are you being sarcastic? What does this have to do with anything? And he lived 2000 years ago, he wouldn't know what insurance is.
AMERICANS PAY MORE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES DO FOR SAME PROCEDURES.
What is the cause of this? How is Obama's plan going to fix it?
BECAUSE MONEY SHOULD NOT DETERMINE CARE. NEED SHOULD!
My pal George outlines how to fix this problem.
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Give them money -- (refundable) tax credits or debit cards (which have replaced food stamps) loaded with a particular value. |
BECAUSE INSURANCE IN THE STATES IS JUST A DICSCOUNT CARD THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE A GOVERNMENT PLAN COVERS VERY VERY LITTLE!
Medicine is an economic good. Someone has to pay for it some where. Whether it be through taxes or the market, I could care less, as long as it is done in the most economically efficient way, not the most politically expedient way, ie what will get you re-elected. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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What the crap? Is it possible to delete a post. I just responded to post from no-hite-please, and now it's gone. Maybe I imagined it and have been having a conversation with myself all this time.   |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
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I just looked it up, and yeah, uninsured immigrants are a large force. Actually one source said something like 11 million immigrants are uninsured, and 33 million non-immigrants are uninsured.
So even if you denied all immigrants healthcare, you'd still have 33 million americans without insurance.
For the immigrants, it kinda makes sense. Insurance is tied to your employer. So you need to have a corporate or government job or employer with employees to get decent insurance. The majority of immigrants are more into small-business ownership, restaurants, ethnic food stores. In those kinds of businesses, you don't have some corporation/government job covering you insurance-wise.
Speaking of which, with more and more average Americans losing their jobs left and right, they are also going to be losing their insurance. So I'd be expecting a lot more Americans born (33 million of them) to raise substantially, while probably the 11 million immigrants will remain about the same. |
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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That is pretty good.
It is also important to note that Obama never had a plan for heathcare that I could clearly see, even during the election campaign.
Fox News and all the right-wing sources told he was going to overhaul it and make it into a communist state.
But from the beginning, pretty much the ONLY plan he had was to insure the uninsured, which isn't much of a solution at all. In the end, that is probably all he is really going to do.
Basically that STILL leaves all of the many gashes of ineffective healthcare with a failed system, but as long as all of the insured LOVE the system the way it is, then yeah, it probably won't be overhauled at all, just moved in a way to keep the same failed system in place to cover more people, which will actually cost the taxpayers a significant more amount of money than just overhauling it altogether. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
That is pretty good.
It is also important to note that Obama never had a plan for heathcare that I could clearly see, even during the election campaign.
Fox News and all the right-wing sources told he was going to overhaul it and make it into a communist state.
But from the beginning, pretty much the ONLY plan he had was to insure the uninsured, which isn't much of a solution at all. In the end, that is probably all he is really going to do.
Basically that STILL leaves all of the many gashes of ineffective healthcare with a failed system, but as long as all of the insured LOVE the system the way it is, then yeah, it probably won't be overhauled at all, just moved in a way to keep the same failed system in place to cover more people, which will actually cost the taxpayers a significant more amount of money than just overhauling it altogether. |
I bet you $100 he doesn't even do that... he just blew the entire GDP worth of taxpayer dollars on bank bailouts, with more likely to come. He's also passing carbon taxes that are likely to amount to a trillion dollars a year. To enact additional taxes to pay for universal healthcare (without abolishing the HMO's, which he would never do since he's a Wall street stooge full stop) would be impossible. At this rate, American healthcare is only going to get worse and more expensive. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| I bet you $100 he doesn't even do that... he just blew the entire GDP worth of taxpayer dollars on bank bailouts, with more likely to come. He's also passing carbon taxes that are likely to amount to a trillion dollars a year. To enact additional taxes to pay for universal healthcare (without abolishing the HMO's, which he would never do since he's a Wall street stooge full stop) would be impossible. At this rate, American healthcare is only going to get worse and more expensive. |
Yeah, it will get worse.
Actually I also preferred the Ron Paul plan to abolish the entire healthcare system altogether. People would just go to the doctor for at-cost costs. The entire 'health insurance' system must go.
But it is so firmly implanted into the American pysche that middlemen must make fortunates off regular American people, it is pretty near impossible to get rid of it.
The insurance industries constant screaming 'if you get rid of us, it's socialism!' doesn't help either, as our American populace, even the college-educated, aren't educated enough to see through blatant propoganda either.
So, yeah, we are basically fucked. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
| Actually I also preferred the Ron Paul plan.... People would just go to the doctor for at-cost costs. |
I think insurance has to be included somehow: because there's only a small possibility of contracting a certain illness and the cost to treat will usually be high, a lot of people will be unable to pay. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, looks like I got all the anti-Obama propoganda online and otherwise cloud my judgement on Obama.
When you get away from all the many anti-Obama propoganda sites on healthcare, you can find the factual numbers and quotes:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090627/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_s_concessions_analysis
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| Beginning last winter, Obama has called for $600 billion in savings over the next 10 years from Medicare and Medicaid. More than a decade ago, when then House Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-Ga., and the GOP wanted to save about $270 billion from Medicare over seven years, Democrats accused them of seeking to cut essential programs. |
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In fact, the president has drawn few lines in the sand.
Any legislation must not add to the deficit, he says.
And he told ABC's "Good Morning America" that "if any reform that we get is not driving down costs in a serious way ... if people say, `We're just going add more people onto a hugely inefficient system,' then I will say no. Because we can't afford it."
In Congress, there's not much support for adding to the deficit, and none for making an inefficient health care system more inefficient. |
Well, there you go. Healthcare reform, but anything that adds to the deficit will not be signed into law. Additionally, even more cuts in medicare and medicaid than Newt Gingrich offered some years back.
Well, I don't see a problem whatsoever with Obama's handling of healthcare.
The only problem I see is that way too many people listen to anti-Obama stuff without actually reading the Associted Press, and other news agencies with the actual quotes and figures mentioned. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Obama really didn't do anything that will create those savings. He just asked the industry to save money.
Anyways, as I said I have no dog in this fight. However, my opinion is that the USA is not able to afford a "public option" or similar without serious tax increases (which are probably on the way without health reform) or even more serious spending cuts from other programs. And I don't think the country will recover under significant tax increases, so I just don't think America can afford it without going after military spending. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
Actually, looks like I got all the anti-Obama propoganda online and otherwise cloud my judgement on Obama.
The only problem I see is that way too many people listen to anti-Obama stuff without actually reading the Associted Press, and other news agencies with the actual quotes and figures mentioned. |
Haha, I like this line of reasoning. Just don't listen to the bad stuff and it might not be true.  |
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