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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Call me silly but I think there's a huge difference between one country occupying a foreign embassy in their country and that same government arresting local national employees. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree. Employees of an embassy, like anyone, should not be arrested without specific charges. This reeks of attempted intimidation, like most of the arrests of the last couple of weeks. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| Where did I say they should be arrested without charge? I said there's a big difference between the hostage crisis where diplomatic personnel were held in contravention of treaties and the current case where the Iranian government is abusing its own people. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| I said there's a big difference between the hostage crisis where diplomatic personnel were held in contravention of treaties and the current case where the Iranian government is abusing its own people. |
I would have thought that arresting & detaining 8 British Embassy staff of Iranian descent, on trumped up charges, was also in contravention of treaties?
Notice the flags in that BBC link picture? The flags of Israel, the US & UK are all being dragged on the ground, & the Iranian flags are being held high. Am I missing something here? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I said there's a big difference between the hostage crisis where diplomatic personnel were held in contravention of treaties and the current case where the Iranian government is abusing its own people. |
I would have thought that arresting & detaining 8 British Embassy staff of Iranian descent, on trumped up charges, was also in contravention of treaties?
Notice the flags in that BBC link picture? The flags of Israel, the US & UK are all being dragged on the ground, & the Iranian flags are being held high. Am I missing something here? |
they're not only Iranian descent, they are Iranian citizens. It is a domestic matter. If they were British citizens, your analogy would work. |
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chris_J2
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Location: From Brisbane, Au.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: Iran |
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| Quote: |
| they're not only Iranian descent, they are Iranian citizens. It is a domestic matter. If they were British citizens, your analogy would work. |
By that logic, next time there's a protest on 'mad cow disease', Korean Police are entitled to arrest & detain Korean American employees at the US consulate? I think not. Their ethnicity should have nothing to do with it.
And what about Zahra Kazemi, a Canadian Iranian journalist, who was arrested in 2003, and died in custody? (after being brutally & repeatedly bashed, by Iranian authorities). Another Canadian Iranian journalist was arrested last week. Currently, Iran has more journalists under arrest, than any other country in the world, (40) including a Greek/UK national.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/23/AR2009062303494.html |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The British military should start smuggling sniper teams into Iran and take out some of these arrogant mullahs. Then they'll change their tune about democracy protesters "being against God and should be killed" pretty fast. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| The British military should start smuggling sniper teams into Iran and take out some of these arrogant mullahs. Then they'll change their tune about democracy protesters "being against God and should be killed" pretty fast. |
Yeah, that'd go over really well. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| I said there's a big difference between the hostage crisis where diplomatic personnel were held in contravention of treaties and the current case where the Iranian government is abusing its own people. |
Agreed.
The first instance involved radical students, supposedly acting on their own, and seizing the American embassy after Washington granted the Shah asylum and seized Iranian assets in foreign banks. The Iranian govt could plausibly claim that it had not seized another government's property -- it was just the students -- and thus avoid making it an act of war against the United States.
In this case, the Iranian govt is indeed making the move, but only against Iranian citizens working for the British embassy, fully within their power, at least as far as international relations go. They are rattling their sabres against the British however, trying to scare them and make them flinch.
In the long run Tehran is only boltering the position of those who would characterize it as an extremist, terroristic govt. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Here we go again: 8 British Embassy Staff Detained by Ir |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
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| Iranian authorities arrested eight local employees of the British embassy in Tehran, accusing them of "playing major parts" in the recent unrest over a presidential election, the semi-official Fars news agency reported today. |
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-iran-britishembassy28-2009jun28,0,7411437.story
Older teachers will remember the 1980's hostage crisis, in which 52 Amercans were held hostage "for 444 days from November 4, 1979 to January 20, 1981".
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Thanks for making me feel so old. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Iran |
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| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they're not only Iranian descent, they are Iranian citizens. It is a domestic matter. If they were British citizens, your analogy would work. |
By that logic, next time there's a protest on 'mad cow disease', Korean Police are entitled to arrest & detain Korean American employees at the US consulate? I think not. Their ethnicity should have nothing to do with it. |
Their ethnicity doesn't have anything at all to do with it. Their nationality does. The people the Iranian government has arrested are not Iranian-Americans. They are Iranian citizens. Got it now?
Here's a news flash for you: the Korean government has every right to arrest American employees of the United States Embassy if (a) those employees are breaking Korean law and (b) said employees do not have diplomatic immunity. Again, their ethnicity will have nothing to do with it.
Another group of people without diplomatic immunity would be those journalists you mentioned. The link you cited mentions that many of the foreign journalists are in fact dual nationals meaning they are also citizens of Iran. The Iranian government therefore treats them as Iranian citizens, not as foreigners. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Iran |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| chris_J2 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| they're not only Iranian descent, they are Iranian citizens. It is a domestic matter. If they were British citizens, your analogy would work. |
By that logic, next time there's a protest on 'mad cow disease', Korean Police are entitled to arrest & detain Korean American employees at the US consulate? I think not. Their ethnicity should have nothing to do with it. |
Their ethnicity doesn't have anything at all to do with it. Their nationality does. The people the Iranian government has arrested are not Iranian-Americans. They are Iranian citizens. Got it now?
Here's a news flash for you: the Korean government has every right to arrest American employees of the United States Embassy if (a) those employees are breaking Korean law and (b) said employees do not have diplomatic immunity. Again, their ethnicity will have nothing to do with it.
Another group of people without diplomatic immunity would be those journalists you mentioned. The link you cited mentions that many of the foreign journalists are in fact dual nationals meaning they are also citizens of Iran. The Iranian government therefore treats them as Iranian citizens, not as foreigners. |
Exactly. Your 2nd analogy fails for the reasons CentralCali gave. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: |
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I forgot to mention one point: Even if the Iranian government has arrested some Iranian-Americans, then the arrestees fall into one of the following groups:
- Dual nationals without diplomatic immunity.
- American citizens who are not dual nationals of Iran and also do not have diplomatic immunity.
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| The British military should start smuggling sniper teams into Iran and take out some of these arrogant mullahs. Then they'll change their tune about democracy protesters "being against God and should be killed" pretty fast. |
Yeah, that'd go over really well. |
The reason why these mullahs have no respect for human rights or human life is that they have no reason to feel they have a stake in defending the rights of others. Look at history. The reason why the concept of freedom of religion arose in Europe was because so many people died in religious wars, the European mindset finally came to realize that defending the freedom of others ensures your own personal survival. Literally, live and let live.
So, when these all-powerful mullahs who issue fatwas on who gets to live or die start to see some of their colleagues have their brains shot out in front of a live audience, it will be an epiphany for them. |
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