Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Manner of Speaking]

A friend of mine who emigrated from Iran with her husband because of the human rights conditions there asked me to pass along this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgCbi20fhCs

[Gopher]

You mean this comes from Canada's Iranian exile community?

[Manner of Speaking]

The person who sent this to me is an Iranian-Canadian and a recent emigrant; when she sent it to me and others, she specifically asked to forward it without any previous recipient addresses attached. Presumably this is to protect recipients and their relatives who may be living in Iran.

So...I guess the specific answer is I'm not exactly sure, but its possible.

There are about 120,000 Iranians living in Canada:

[Sergio Stefanuto]

Terrible song, I'm afraid

[Gopher]

Manner: be wary of getting involved in that civil war.

I, too, support "democracy," but I do not know for certain that those pro-Shah, or more vaguely, anti-theocratic, Iranians who fled into exile after 1979 understand "democracy" the same way you and I do -- or even whether they are employing it in good-faith.

As G. Orwell pointed out long ago, like "fascism" and many other emotionally-charged political terms, and I would add "imperialism" these days, this remains an extremely abused, ill-defined, amorphous concept, and, of course, an excellent propaganda device to rally everyone behind your cause and against your opponents' cause.

Personally, I doubt we will ever see actual democracy occur outside of Western Europe, including all of Britain's "dominion" lands, and the United States in world affairs.

[Manner of Speaking]

Well, it happened here in Korea, happened in South Africa, the walls came down in the Soviet Union and East Europe...but in any case I understand your point. My impression from my friends is that they just want to be able to live in Iran the same way they can live in Canada...human rights and no religious fanatics breathing down their necks.

I think the protests that have taken place since the election in Iran, however, put paid to the idea that the Iranian people are a monolithic, theocratic society and that everyone supports the mullahs. Nowadays they look more like the generals in Myanmar or even the Korea of Chun Do-Hwan and Roh Tae-Woo. Maybe after the next election...if they let a next election happen...

[mises]

[Gopher]

South Korea a democracy?

One of the ways American academe tests and critiques American democracy is through its citizenship and inclusion practices. How has America treated immigrants and foreign labor through its history, for example?

America usually comes out less than democratic in these scholars' assessments, as I am sure you know. Check out, for instance, historian Linda Kerber's work. She has cited H. Arendt, compared the United States to a totalitarian system, and lamented that the state terrorizes us with an implied threat of rendering us stateless any time it chooses.

How do you think South Korea would fare under such citizenship and inclusion analyses, Manner? How has South Korea treated its immigrants and foreign labor through its history? How about South Korean women, homosexuals, and the disabled, for that matter? Democratically?

Calling South Korea a democracy makes no sense. The concept, because everyone can make it mean whatever they like, means very little anymore.

So I think we should start by asking pointed questions to get a better idea of exactly what kind of govt Iranian exiles would like to create in Iran, if we are to support them in this. And, like the Cuban exile community, they ought to start by discarding such nonsense as "democracy" and "freedom" and simply speaking plainly. With whom will they side in world affairs and why? Pro-capitalist? Foreign investment and free trade? Independent judiciary? Civil liberties and minority rights? etc., etc.

[Manner of Speaking]

** puzzled ** Somehow this discussion has moved away slightly from discussing human rights in Iran to more of a discussion about democracy and which states are democratic...maybe it has to do a bit with the terminology used in the video I guess...

As to your question, there is a distinction that can be made between which states are "democratic" or not, and which states are democratic but could stand with a little improvement. Its somewhat of a methodological issue. For this discussion I'll offer the definition of "democratic" as having the following characteristics:

- government authorities respect the rule of law
- protection of civil rights
- governments are accountable to the population through regular, fair elections
- freedom of speech, religion, assembly, thought

By this definition Korea is definitely a democratic society. Respect for the rulings of the courts and the rule of law is generally prevalent, civil rights are respected, opponents of the current President are free to protest peacefully in the streets and get on TV and criticize the government, there are regular, fair, properly held elections, and nobody is jailed for their religious beliefs.

Korea is going through a transition nowadays where it is starting to accept the idea of a pluralistic society...you can see that in new policies and laws in the National Assembly as time goes by, in TV programs and commercials, and opportunities and legal protection for immigrants and foreign workers are getting better and better every year. The status of women is improving...but it is certainly true that Korea has a long way to go in protecting and improving the status of the differently abled. Where I am living nowadays, I see that every day.

There are some academics who would set certain criteria and then by these criteria, argue that states like Canada or the US are not "democratic". But that goes more to the issue of are these states essentially democratic but could use some improvement. Some would argue nowadays that the Parliamentary system in Canada is becoming less democratic because the powers of individual members of Parliament have become eroded and and concentrated in the office of the Prime Minister. They make a good point, but gays and lesbians would argue that Canada offers more freedoms and civil rights than almost any other nation in the world.

[Gopher]

No, not puzzling. I do not think we ought to be so easily led around by those who would employ "democracy" and "freedom," etc. That is my only point here.

And the academics I am thinking of, they tend to characterize the United States as irredeemably lost, if not evil and totalitarian, and not merely in need of "some improvement."

[Manner of Speaking]

Agreed, absolutely. And I would go so far as to argue that "redefining" generally-accepted definitions is not an academic exercise at all...more a form of public mental masturbation than anything else.

[Nowhere Man]

Hmm...

This is a fascinating thread.

Let's not take things out of context:

This is a very liberal board.

The "Why Iran has it coming" thread really got its due course.

There was a great tromping about of "something must be done"-types.

The same individuals rejected bombing.

The same individuals made regular, snide remarks about the non-efficacy of people posting on this board's influence on the world.

So, someone actually posts something. Not bland partisan tripe, but the closest thing I've seen to real political action on this board, and he gets?

1) Careful with joining this revolution-if you're really following this, it's not a revolution

2) Careful with the exiles, we don't know what kind of "democracy" these "pro-shah" types want- as if these Canadian-Iranians have the power to set the government, as if there's a revolution afoot there

3) We don't know bout the "democracy" they want- The US is a republic, not a democracy, and America should be careful tossing this word about.

But wait, with all this alarmist pap, did the video even mention revolution or democracy? Nope. This is a video about "freedom". Not in some drippy romantic sense; it's about free elections.

The best, sanest, simplest solution to Iran, WMD therein, and the threat it poses is to see the hardline conservatives there removed in favor of more progressive elements.

MoS's post supports just that. I welcome and congratulate it.

Moreover, before anyone dives off into self-pitying, pseudo-academic burble, I hope they resurface with a course of action and not just the reactionary pomposity seen here thus far.

[Ya-ta Boy]

Here's a link to a video on the topic of rights in Iran:

http://voiceofthevoiceless.net/

I think the G8 made a good move. No sanctions that would stir some people to rally to the gov't; more discussions at the end of September at a G20 meeting in Pittsburg. That gives almost 3 months for things to develop in Iran. With the amount of discontent in the country, it's possible something will have happened by then.

[Hanson]

تف به شرافتت سید علی خامنه ای. دیکتاتور کثیف. لعنت به تو. حقیرترین موجود عالمی. به امید نابودیت شیطان بزرگ. مرگ بر خامنه ای، مرگ بر خامنه ای، مرگ بر خامنه ای